Navigating Life's Uncertainties, Climate Reality, and Business Trust

Mark Smith: 0:01
Welcome to the Ecosystem Show. We're thrilled to have you with us here. We challenge traditional mindsets and explore innovative approaches to maximizing the value of your software estate. We don't expect you to agree with everything. Challenge us, share your thoughts and let's grow together. Now let's dive in. It's showtime. Welcome back everybody. Finally, we have got almost a full house. We're only one man down today, but Anna makes up for two people. So she is here and she is the most important person in the room today. But yeah, it's been a while. How's everyone going, hi?

Ana Welch : 0:38
everyone. I'm also not pregnant. It sounded like I'm pregnant.

Mark Smith: 0:45
I'm just saying your level of importance in this conversation is the equivalent to two people.

Ana Welch : 0:53
Are you pregnant? I'm not, unfortunately. I wish I was, but I'm not.

Andrew Welch : 1:05
I think since the last time the four of us four or five of us were together on a podcast, um, uh, let's see for for anna and me, inside of a six-week period, um, I suffered a stroke and anna was caught in valencia, spain, in those horrible, catastrophic flooding, uh, the flooding that happened there. So I don't know about you guys, but anna and I both very, very luckily okay, but oh, my god, we've had, we've had a month and a half yeah, I yeah.

Mark Smith: 1:34
Crazy times, crazy times, um, indeed, and you know, I was across, of course, your um near-death experience, and we don't joke about that, do we Anna?

Ana Welch : 1:46
We do not. It's against the law. I will take your bets.

Mark Smith: 1:50
Exactly, I was just saying the videos of Valencia are mind-blowing. They're mind-blowing it's like something out of a movie. The level of carnage.

Ana Welch : 2:01
I think I've never seen anything like it and I did not think that Europe is the place for anything like it either. So I think the geography of it all is striking as well, because this has not happened in like the US or Asia or the Caribbean, where people are kind of prepared. I'm not saying it's better in those places, but at least people are prepared. In Valencia people don't know what to do. If it happens in England, we won't know what to do.

William Dorrington : 2:30
But we're seeing more of this. That's the concern here, isn't it? Not to go into the whole climate change topic, but look at the Danube River as well. It's burst, its banks completely, destroyed Budapest all the way down to Slovakia, et cetera. And now we're seeing this in Valencia. It's becoming more and more frequent. It's not becoming like an abnormal occurrence and that's what's worrying, crazy. Well, that's a great positive start to the podcast.

Andrew Welch : 2:59
Hey, you know I can put something positive on this, and I know it sounds trite and corny. It sounds trite and and corny, but sometimes you just go through, um, you just go through moments in your life that that remind you to go home and love your kids or love your partner and be with your family and, um, you know, sometimes you just go through those moments in life that remind you of what's really important.

William Dorrington : 3:22
So so true.

Andrew Welch : 3:24
Yeah, Go go love your people, everyone do it.

Mark Smith: 3:27
I took, uh, 18 months off because of that. You know, four deaths in one year in my family and uh, it definitely is sobering and I was at the height of my career at that point. Um, when I said the height of my career, I was on a good. You know, I still got way more heights to go. The offers wills made me. I know I've got many mountains to climb, but yeah, it is a sobering thing and you know good reality check and you know about what. What is the thing that's important in life?

Ana Welch : 4:01
yeah jillies.

Mark Smith: 4:04
So transition time like that. What are we talking about today? So a couple of weeks ago, maybe a month, anna and I sat down together and we did a podcast. In fact, the specific podcast was episode 612. And if you want to go back and have a look at it, we're talking about trust and the importance of trust between partners, between customers and between Microsoft, and so you know, we get feedback on episodes, and I just want to share some feedback on one of the episodes that we got, from Rachel Roberts, and I'm wondering, anna, do you want to just read out what she says, Because I think it's a good thing to drill into today in a bit more detail.

Ana Welch : 4:49
Yeah, I think you're right. First of all, I love those episodes that we get to do together because I feel like it can turn pretty interesting, you know, without being sometimes as geeky as usual.

Andrew Welch : 5:04
The one-to-one episodes. I've done a couple of them with Mark and, with the greatest fondness for the other three of you, the one-to-one episodes with Mark are totally different because, as you heard, he's done at least 612 podcasts. They're fun. They're really fun to do.

Mark Smith: 5:22
Thank you sir.

Ana Welch : 5:25
So here's what Rachel's saying here. She's saying this episode's on my watch list, so pardon me if my comment is redundant. I love the topic of trust in business and in AI. I believe humans need to work together and be involved and intentional with the integration process of newer technology. How do we want to work alongside AI, quantum new tech, what benefits do we see and how do we plan a path towards them?

Ana Welch : 5:55
Instead of letting organic doubts seed away, we need intention to set a clear vision, and the only ones that can do that is us, and I mean all of us. We need to be involved in shaping the positive, bright future and all that is available. Otherwise, other undesirable or more difficult possibilities can emerge. We'll lose sight of the original goal. Change is so hard, but we get to decide on what process looks like. But we get to decide on what process looks like If we put intention behind it. In doing so, you can build trust and reduce fears of uncertainty, not just in AI, but in each other as well.

Ana Welch : 6:35
Just think this is like a totally beautiful comment. Your comment is absolutely non-redundant because it offers such an interesting perspective, because we were talking about the trust between you know, customer and consultancy customer and you know providers such as Microsoft and so on and so forth. But I think Rachel talks about the trust in ourselves and our own teams and our own processes and in our own path, you know, in the end, because it's so tempting to just fall in love with your skills and then forget about that path to change or to adoption of new technology and how intentional you are with it. I think it's an interesting comment.

Andrew Welch : 7:30
I thought it was interesting in the pre-recording before we hit the record button on this, each of us pulled something different out of that comment. First of all, absolutely, rachel. Thank you so much for for listening and for the great, the great comment. The part that I pulled out of that was the idea of vision and intentionality for how you, how an individual and how an organization adopts artificial intelligence or any technology. So I actually just have spent the last couple of days with an organization that is really at the beginning of their AI journey and, of course, like almost every other organization on the planet.

Andrew Welch : 8:23
That also means that at the beginning of their data journey, their data platform journey, they're talking about power platform, they're talking about modernizing applications to make the data in those applications ready for AI organizations including, by the way, cios and other executive or C-level leaders I still hear so much of is. You know, essentially we want the AI, we think it's good, or maybe we're panicked because we don't have it. We want it and I hear a lot of still obsessing about use cases or scenarios or you know the specific workloads or the specific use cases, and I always try to back these organizations out and say let's be intentional, and let's all of us think about what our collective vision is for the application of this technology inside of you know, whatever it is, our team, our organization across the workforce, whatever. So, yeah, the part that I really pulled out of that comment was just the importance of vision and intentionality. I'm sure we'll dig into it, will. What do you think?

William Dorrington : 9:40
So there's definitely elements of that and I agree with you. I would echo what you said, andrew, and I think it's. It's quite funny when we look at the adoption of technology over the past sort of 20 years. It's normally either it pushing up to the exact level or line of business owners going we need this and pushing up to the exact level, but because of the gardeners of the world, the financial times, even bbc and all the other news articles, for once it's the accept boards going. We need this. We don't know what it is, but everyone else is doing it and I want a slice of it we're terrified.

William Dorrington : 10:15
Bring it, bring it to us and it's, it's, it's quite interesting and it does. You're right, you know, no clear objectives go. I've got on to chat gpt and I've got it to write me a poem about making a brownie in the style of Snoop Dogg and we're like, okay, well, let's use that within your business. No, no, no, we need to do something else. So I definitely picked that up as well. But I also picked up the fact that there's a lot of change management with items such as this, because people freak out around words, especially like ai, even quantum.

William Dorrington : 10:46
Actually, you know, I found it fascinating. She actually called out quantum. It'd be a nice one to dig into a bit of qubits etc. But you know, ai means already means a lot to people in this world, thanks to to hollywood and uh, it's always seen as this, this quite evil thing that's going to take everything away. And every time we bring out automation even the calculator, when it first came out, the accountants went mad thinking they had no job left from it. So I think change management and adoption management and enablement here in digital literacy is really key, and I think those are some of my elements. I've sort of it jumped out to me when reading that. And once again, a fantastic comment and thank you for sharing that with us.

Mark Smith: 11:49
Yeah, just to pull on that thread a bit um, I've been working with a bunch of folks, um in the role of cto across the world and when I say a bunch over 100 of them in the last couple of weeks that that fill this role, and one of the the common threads around these executive discussions is fomo. They are worried that their competitor is going to get ahead of them. So it's not like that they have a. Hey, this is what we want to do, this is how we. They're just like, we don't want to get left behind and, as you say, the hair in the gardener reports, et cetera. One of the observations I've made IT is still the handbrake, because it's another piece of tech that they've got to maintain and look after, and so they're just like whoa, slow down. One organization came across said listen, we know our data is shocking and we don't want people. You know the whole, you know security by obscurity. They know the IT department knew. They said, listen, it's going to take us two years, let's just not, let's. So I'm like, hang on a second. You know you're at security, have a security risk profile here, but let's not, because adding ai in the mix will actually just blow it up for everybody and they will know that we've got a security. I'm just just like that's. I cannot be. It shocks me the complacency of that type of attitude.

Mark Smith: 13:16
And then the other one was around adoption that you talked about, will. There is that I have seen sizable implementation thousand plus seats of Copilot been rolled out with absolutely no adoption plan. No, we turned it on and nobody's using it, type attitude. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, are you serious that you go and spend that amount of money, turn it on? People don't even use it. How weird. And I feel that this AI needs more of an adoption rigor to it than perhaps a lot of the other IT rollouts that we've had in the past. You know, cloud to a lot of people was transparent to them. They didn't see it right. Your servers moved. It wasn't going to be a big deal to the end user, but to not put a you know and I'm a big fan of ProSci a proper change methodology in place to actually take people on a journey and increase their AI literacy by 30%. It's got to be intentional, it can't be just oh well, let's see how they go.

Mark Smith: 14:24
And I think, fundamentally the biggest reason people are not adopting it at the speed that they could be particularly the chat experience, adopting it at the speed that they could be. Particularly the chat experience is that that chat window looks very similar to a search window in Google, no-transcript, and they are using a search paradigm rather than a conversational paradigm and how they engage. And so one or two things happen. One, the answer is magical, and they're like what is this crazy thing? And or two, the answer is not good, and so therefore they go. This is all overhyped, not good, and so therefore they go. This is all overhyped, right?

Mark Smith: 15:15
And I had this metaphor that I shared on a podcast I was on out of Turkey this week. I was a guest on somebody else's podcast, which is crazy. I've never done this for forever. And then all of a sudden I'm getting asked all these different podcasts to be a guest. And what came up is that I said to the, the host I said, when people approach ai and you've gone through a rigor around training, around practice and around using it, you and I, if you haven't trained, if you haven't gone through a, an adoption process, we're going to have widely different results.

Mark Smith: 15:49
I said it would. It would be like you being trained for 10 years as an oil painting artist. You would pick up the brush. What you would create after 10 years of practice and rigor would be something probably amazing. I said if I picked up that same paintbrush, had the same set of oils, the same canvas as you, you're going to get a stick figure right, because that's the level of my skill and training. So do I say, oh no, the paints and the artist brush and the canvas, they've got the problem. Or is it the difference is one has been trained, one has had practice. Or is it the difference is one has been trained, one has had practice? One gets a totally different outcome.

Ana Welch : 16:33
I think you can take that same example and apply it on any not any, but a lot of the technology, especially low-code. Right? Low-code came out with this paradigm that everybody can use it. Right, the citizen development movement, and, like all these people, trained to do low code and it created a discrepancy between low code developers and pro code developers. And going back to trust a little bit. Now we are asking pro code developers to create enterprise applications because they are the professional developers. Only they haven't trained with the brushes and the paint. So and that's. I'm not trying to say that they create ugly canvas apps. I'm trying to say that they're going to go back and try and mold something else, ie write the code because they haven't been trained and they do not trust the technology and they do not trust their team. And that's a big problem for, like all of us, regardless on which side of the story you are, whether you are a pro code developer or a local developer- this all comes back to.

William Dorrington : 18:00
Change is hard, you know, and we have a saying, don't we? A bad workman always blames their tools. Uh, you know, if, if, really if we were, if evolution didn't exist, would still be swinging from trees. You know, all this comes back to the fact that we are happy to stick to where we are, you know. And another good example of this the oil painting. You know, one of the things that I liken it to is we've had and it's nothing to do with tech We've had a boom in sort of mindful eating. So we've had, you know, hellofresh delivered and other Augusto, and all of a sudden, you know, you would say you're an okay cook, but the moment you start following these recipes, you become a great cook, and it's just about that change, management and training you know, and it's the same principle though.

William Dorrington : 18:38
So having you know and you're doing that by proxy, just by learning, by having structured materials, by doing mild hackathons over a burger, you know it's how we work. But I think we're always going to have concerns when the tech intensity and the wave intensity of tech is coming at us faster and faster and our time to adopt is actually getting shorter and shorter, and that's where we're having issues. It's the velocity that's getting thrown at us. Cloud was great because it came out in what? 2008, 10? We had years to take that on before. Then. Big data analytics came along before and then more years before then, actually, you know, advanced bidirectional encoder and even GPT came along. But it's getting faster now. Now it's multimodal, now it's agents, now it's something else, now it's something else, and that's creating a much higher intensity.

Andrew Welch : 19:25
It's like you read my recent white paper. Thank you, william, I do.

William Dorrington : 19:29
I do read my recent white paper. Thank you, william, I do, I do. I've done talks on this as well. I do my tech intensity talks that anna's had to put through a few times.

Andrew Welch : 19:33
But yeah, I think it's probably the same. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Mark Smith: 19:38
Thank you, I can't thank you enough have any of you started or looked very closely at?

William Dorrington : 19:44
semantic kernel came out in july this year from microsoft it's something I've browsed over and I've referenced again recently, because we're doing a piece of work for a client around sort of adopting AI by actually building out a process for them. It's not something I'm well-versed on, mark, so feel free to give an intro to it.

Mark Smith: 20:04
It's pretty incredible but, like any of these new things coming out right, it could easily be superseded by something else, as in it's open source. I'm pretty sure it's open source, microsoft that provided that framework. But going, you know, I saw a presentation last week, which was quite an eye opener, of using it to redefine the e-commerce experience. It to redefine the e-commerce experience and when you bring generative AI into the mix and just the speed that you could create a totally different e-commerce experience. Let's say that was 100% voice driven. So, one of the things that they have found in e-commerce, right, elderly people struggle with one, searching a website for the product they want. Two, adding it to a cart. Three, going through a checkout process that involves a credit card and, you know, having something delivered. And, of course, the whole model could be voice generated. And you know the demo went through.

Mark Smith: 21:02
The person said listen, I want some. Went to a website, a retail website, and said I want some black boots and, as such, the software doesn't know what the color black is and it doesn't know what a boot is. Right, two dimensions of potentially a product in the database. But generative ai, right, knows what black is, it knows it's a color and yeah, the scientific folks don't accuse me about whether black or white is a color or not, you'll get the concept right. And it says, hey, yeah, I've got something you know.

Mark Smith: 21:36
It hands it to an API and says do you understand this? Like black, you've got yeah, we've got, a whole bunch of products that are black Boots. What are boots? Well, they're footwear. And so it hands it to that API and it hands back and said yeah, I've got these black boots, and it just displays on screen the options. And then the person goes well, I need size eight, and it doesn't have to have all that stuff pre-programmed, because the generative AI allows it to reference it. And then says can you add it to my cart and can you just use my regular credit card? And there might be a validation step of putting in your CVC, which might be an auditory entry again. You know, I might say one, two, three and bang, it's all done without this.

Andrew Welch : 22:20
And of course it brings in a whole bunch of, I think is a keyboard and of course it's not going to go away, the keyboard, and I'm not going to say the keyboard is dead, that would just be stupid, um but, what I'm saying is that I think we're going to remember that scene from from star trek, um the voyage home with the whales, when scotty doesn't, he tries to talk to the mouse as if it's a microphone and then he says, oh, a keyboard, how quaint but are we going there where voice is going to be the more dominant interface for doing?

Mark Smith: 22:55
maybe not for making, but for for day-to-day stuff?

Ana Welch : 22:59
We are, in my opinion, because you may say we are going there where the voice is the most dominant tool that we've got and we are, but even that requires adoption. Like to give you an example now. If you go into an Ikea and you like pick up your products and then you go to the self-checkout, um tills, um, you can't actually self-checkout. You need to like download an app and then scan your products with the app and then scan the the thing, the checkout on your phone, and then you can pay. And if you ask this is not my own experience, I read it somewhere on a random article this week when they asked the assistant what the hell just happened, the assistant was like well, this is much easier for you because you can scan products as you go through the shop and when you. But they didn't know this drives me crazy.

Andrew Welch : 24:08
There's the aldi, I think, down the street, the aldi go, or I forget what it's called right, and I remember anna, anna and I walked in there, um, with our daughter and and we had no idea what was going on and we had to to like we walked there. We couldn't figure out how to get past the gate. We finally figured out that we had to download an app, but then it was like, do we both need to download the app? Can we both walk through the gate? Can we bring Alexandra with us? And then, like, the whole experience was just so terrible and I'm sorry this is a little bit, but this is just such a pet peeve of mine, this idea of it's the adoption, it's the adoption journey again.

William Dorrington : 24:47
It's all the same.

Andrew Welch : 24:48
It annoys the crap out of me.

William Dorrington : 24:50
It could be the most efficient process on earth, but if you don't know how to use it, it's completely inefficient and pointless to you, because you are the user.

Ana Welch : 24:58
So going back to the voice, do you talk at all of the apps, at all of the websites? What's the prerequisite?

William Dorrington : 25:05
It's going to be Neuralink soon. It's going to be Neuralink soon, so don't worry.

Andrew Welch : 25:17
One of the things that, when we think about voice, is that, voice being our primary interface, it's shifting from being tactile you know, a keyboard or a mouse or a touchscreen that we, we manipulate with our hands. I'm uncomfortable with that, not for any particular, you know, moral or philosophical reason, right, but just because the tactile interacting with my devices and with the, with the software on those devices, is such an ingrained part of what has become my creative process. And you know, I'm really of two minds on this. One of one thought that I have is that maybe this is going to go, if this is, if we're going to see more and more of this interaction shifting to voice interaction. Because I have to say, even in what I perceive to be early returns, with Copilot and ChatGPT and the ability of these technologies to interpret and act on things, that I say it's impressive, right, and it's still very, very early days. So, on the one hand, I think, you know, maybe this is one of those long-held tech nerd dreams, right, long-held tech nerd dreams, right, sort of like the video conference that it took the pandemic and it took teams for us to all finally turn, you know, teams or Zoom or whatever for us to all finally turn on our cameras.

Andrew Welch : 26:33
This was something that I thought was long, just dumb. It was not a thing that I wanted to do. I had no real interest in video calls, I didn't FaceTime people. I just thought it was dumb. So, on the one hand, I think maybe eventually I will get over thinking that voice interacting with my voice, interacting with my device via my voice, is no longer dumb because I'm going to get used to it. Or maybe we've backdoored it with things like Siri and Alexa and that type of thing. Or, on the other hand, more concerning, maybe I'm just old now, right, like maybe this is me trying to transition from pen and paper to the newfangled computer. I don't know.

Mark Smith: 27:17
I think it's going to be multimodal, because it's not going to be a one replaces the other, because, like what I've just found out recently as I have got into doing more and more writing, is actually I'm going to write on a pen and paper.

Mark Smith: 27:30
You know that old thing. I'm not going to get out the coal from the fireplace and start writing, but I'm going to use pen and paper. Pencil maybe, but the beauty is, now I can take that, take a photo of it, chuck it into generative AI, fully trans. Now it's in digital format for me to take further, but I've still got to. I've still been allowed, as you say, andrew, to go through your chosen creative process with your keyboard. I can still do that and it allows me to articulate my ideas, my scribbles, things like that. But and this is why I think we're going to become more and more cyborgish, right, and that we're going to be able to extend ourselves with ai we're going to have a second brain which is digital and it's it's not about going okay, you're, you're ancient, that's an old way of doing it.

Andrew Welch : 28:18
I think it's both I something just as an aside, something really funny to me or not, I don't know funny. Something really funny to me or not? I don't know funny, but something interesting happened to me today for the first time in maybe ever or God knows how long, today I couldn't wrap my brain around how to get the mathematical result that I wanted out of Excel, and I actually I did. And then I realized, well, I don't, I don't own paper, so it's going to be the iPad. So I pulled my iPad out of my backpack and I got my. I got the Apple pencil and I scribbled there and I actually did the math.

Andrew Welch : 28:55
I had to draw a little picture of a pie chart and I did the math, I scribbled it and then I said, ok, I now understand what I'm trying to get Excel to do and I copied it. Oh, I copied it over from Excel, but it was maybe the first time ever that I actually went from Excel, which I couldn't figure out how to get, to solve the math problem. And I did it. I worked it out on paper. So that was. That was an odd experience today.

William Dorrington : 29:18
Well, well, will, will, no. No, the comment's slightly gone from context, but I was going to say this also with all the examples we're given. It does go back to the fact that another thing on top of tech intensity is also that product and product-driven organizations are much more comfortable with being agile and shipping products and features just one at a time before they build a critical mass of usability. We've seen that with chat, gpt. Because they've had to put so much money into it, they said look, we're just going to give you this feature to start with, and then we're going to launch more and more. We're going to start making it more multimodal. Reaching out to Dali Whisper. You know, if we look at this and actually look at tech intensity over the years even the smartphone back in 2002 when it first came out no one remembers handspring trio. No one remembers. That's the first one, the first I do I do.

Andrew Welch : 30:07
That thing was awesome. I loved my trio. That thing was great, but when it first came out.

William Dorrington : 30:13
It was, it was well, it was an analog phone that could connect to the internet. It only had a browser. But what? What happened from there, you know, is that there was a bit of adoption. But then, actually, we fast forward and you know, the big man himself, steve Jobs, stands on stage in 2007 or whenever it was, and goes yeah, it can connect to the Internet, it can take pictures, it can listen to music, you can send images and it's sunny. Because they rolled out more and more which was actually not that much more complex than what Hans Big Trio did. Suddenly, everyone went wild for it.

Andrew Welch : 30:49
And now it's used by 80 percent of the global population in general smartphones. If you want a, I think, go back and watch. If you're listening to this, go back. Just look it up on youtube. The, the and steve jobs keynote when he announced the iphone. It's one of the greatest. Yeah, exactly, it's like one of the greatest bits of showmanship and the way that he you know it's. Are you getting it?

Mark Smith: 31:06
It's a phone, it's a phone.

Andrew Welch : 31:09
It's an internet browsing device it's a music player.

Mark Smith: 31:13
It was four things, wasn't it? It was four things that he said all in one device.

Andrew Welch : 31:16
Yeah, I'm so. It's such a moment, go back and watch it on YouTube. Pour yourself a glass of wine.

William Dorrington : 31:22
He was selling a lifestyle. At the same time, he's a clever guy, yeah.

Mark Smith: 31:26
Yeah, largest company in the world until 24 hours ago was Apple, and I don't know if you have seen, but now NVIDIA is the number one company in the world.

Ana Welch : 31:40
Yeah, I've seen it coming. They were so smart, they were so incredibly smart.

Mark Smith: 31:46
How crazy, though, like as in how things have changed so quickly.

Ana Welch : 31:50
Incredible. I mean, it didn't change quickly, but nobody paid attention to NVIDIA. Everybody thought they were just producing like gold.

William Dorrington : 31:59
What happens when there's a gold rush? Do you go find the gold or do you sell the pickaxes? You know, it's one of those scenarios right.

Mark Smith: 32:06
And then you go sell the pickaxes, just like Cisco with the internet right, cisco built the infrastructure of the internet.

Andrew Welch : 32:13
I had to look this up because I didn't want to make a false statement, but this is true. Nvidia's market capitalization is greater than the entire gross domestic product of the united kingdom we need to wrap this up.

Mark Smith: 32:34
Because we're at time, andrew, I'm going to throw to you as the only american in the room you have a new president.

Andrew Welch : 32:39
Tell us about that my parents were divorced when I was in the third grade as well. So if you'd like to just sort of rack up all the tragedies in my life, we can go there.

William Dorrington : 32:53
We're out, does that?

Andrew Welch : 32:55
tell you and we're off. I mean, listen, I woke up yesterday morning just like everyone else. I think that it's a. I'll make. I'll make no, no bones about my views of the world. Listen, I think it's a, I think it's a tragedy and it to say that I am sad would be an understatement. To say that I am sad would be an understatement. I think I'm most sad that I know that people who I love and there are some people who I love and care about who voted for the man but come back to me once. I've had a little more time. Right now I'm sort of trying to put it out of my mind.

Mark Smith: 33:39
I don't want to bait you, but I won't. We will leave it at that.

Andrew Welch : 33:42
I don't want to and I won't. Yeah, I don't. We will leave it at that.

Mark Smith: 33:44
I don't want to and I won't yeah.

Andrew Welch : 33:46
I don't want to and I won't. On an on a more positive note, I'm going to kick it over to Anna. Can I kick it over to Anna?

Mark Smith: 33:51
for a moment. Yes, yeah, Anna.

Andrew Welch : 33:53
Anna has just in the last two weeks um gotten her first Mac book. How's it, uh, how's it working for you, anna?

Ana Welch : 34:00
I'm still adjusting, guys. It's a journey.

William Dorrington : 34:07
I think there's a group you can go to there's a group right it took me 10 minutes to find the link.

Ana Welch : 34:15
It's just yeah, I'm on an adoption journey, An adoption curve.

Andrew Welch : 34:22
It's a tech intensity problem right here okay, I'm going to uh with that.

Mark Smith: 34:28
Thanks for joining us. Uh, see you on the next one. Thanks for tuning into the ecosystem show. We hope you found today's discussion insightful and thought-provoking, and maybe you had a laugh or two. Remember your feedback and challenges help us all grow, so don't hesitate to share your perspective. Stay connected with us for more innovative ideas and strategies to enhance your software estate. Until next time, keep pushing the boundaries and creating value. See you on the next episode.