From .NET to Power Platform: Scott Durow's Transformational Journey in Enterprise Software Development

Mark Smith: 0:01
Welcome to the Co-Pilot Show, where I interview Microsoft staff innovating with AI. I hope you will find this podcast educational and inspire you to do more with this great technology. Now let's get on with the show. Today's guest is from Gibson's, british Columbia in Canada. He works at Microsoft as a Power Platform and Cloud Developer Advocate. He is the Microsoft as a power platform and cloud developer advocate. He is the author of the Ribbon Workbench and other brilliant tools and libraries that are used globally. He's a developer at heart, but has embraced both low-code as well as his pro-code roots. You can find links to his bio social media in the show notes for this episode. Welcome to the show, Scott.

Scott Durow: 0:45
Thank you, Mark. Great to be here and great to see you as well.

Mark Smith: 0:49
So true, I see, and of course our listeners won't, but your hair is still green. You've fully embraced it.

Scott Durow: 0:57
Oh yes, you got to run with it, which I love.

Mark Smith: 0:59
So many people that went to ColorCloud have seemed to really have embraced it and maintained it, which I think is awesome.

Scott Durow: 1:05
And you know I found that there's like an added benefit of it, because at conferences now, you know, people can just sort of refer to me as going to see Scott. He's got green hair. So you know, it's like people come up to me and say I've been told to speak to you because I know it's you, because you're the only one here with green hair.

Mark Smith: 1:22
Exactly, exactly. And what an impactful thing that Color Cloud did there. Yeah.

Scott Durow: 1:29
And.

Mark Smith: 1:29
Matt's, did you know to stand out? That's brilliant Conversations with you that I want to have, so most people in the community will know who you are, but I will jump back there in a second. But this conversation today is about a growing concern that I have noticed in the community in that when I started my career 20-odd years ago, microsoft created a lot of content for NET developers to consider Back then. Mscrm then became Dynamics 365, dynamics CRM, those type of things, and where we used to build the OG low-code solution right where we would drag or place a field on a form and all the heavy lifting API access, reporting. Everything was built out for us. But Microsoft did a lot of training to show NET developers what this new world could look like, and one of the premises of it was that time to business value was massively reduced. If you built this way, you could still use your developer skills because there were limitations on that platform and you'd build plug-ins and you'd build workflow assemblies, et cetera. That would allow you to extend beyond it.

Mark Smith: 2:45
I feel in the modern world that we live in, in the power platform, which is a much superior iteration of the technology that we have today to what we had back in the day. And yet there seems to not be a lot of resources to help a pro dev that has never come across a power platform before to get up to speed rapidly without just having to follow their nose. And what I mean by that? Without getting to the point of going, oh man, that's restrictive on me, oh, that's a limitation. I would have done it this way if I had done it and if I could just jump to Visual Studio and build this out myself. And it's kind of like I want to expose, if you like, not the limitations for the. Oh my gosh, there's limitations, but from hey, you do it differently here as opposed to here, and in this case you do need to go to Procode. And also, I'm reviewing a book at the moment and it's been written by another Microsoft employee and it's around anti-patterns of the power platform.

Mark Smith: 3:46
Okay, yeah, and he refers to the golden toolbox or the golden hammer, which I just think is brilliant, which is just like the power platform is the only thing we deal with right, and we live in a landscape now where, if you're not considering Azure as part of any solution and M365 as part of any solution, and Fabric and Purview and all these other. Now, of course, ai, copilot and the mix You're limiting your scope if you're only going to deal with a very small set of tools that you know. Both you and me have built our careers on Microsoft business applications, have built our careers on Microsoft business applications, but I find my conversations with customers these days are much more broader than just those set of tools. Now, I know I've given quite a build-up here, so before I let you get into answering some of my questions and my thoughts in this space, gibsons, how did you come to be a Britishish dude like you are a british dude, a british dude living in canada?

Mark Smith: 4:50
Tell me about life and what you do for pleasure outside of your day job yeah, well, that's quite a transition.

Mark Smith: 4:56
I was full on there in terms of the we'll come back to that, I'm gonna let you percolate it a bit while you answer this one.

Scott Durow: 5:04
Yeah, percolate, I need some coffee. I think yeah. So I moved here four years ago, so we've been coming here for a very long time my wife's family from here, and so we're close to sisters and her mom and dad. It's a beautiful place in the world it really is. I mean west coast, the west coast of Canada mountains, ocean. Pacific Ocean, right yeah absolutely Great water sports, great hiking, great skiing, really great cultures all kind of fused together in Vancouver.

Mark Smith: 5:35
Nice, If the earth was flat, I could look out my window here over the Pacific Ocean and I could probably wave to you on the other side, because you're just up and around. You know that body of water outside is the same body of water that you dip your toes in.

Scott Durow: 5:49
I'd feel you staring at me, Mark.

Scott Durow: 5:52
I know, but it's actually funny because I do live right next to the ocean actually and there is, so Vancouver Island is over the water and so you can see Nanaimo and you can also see various parts of the mainland and yeah. So I do speak to some people and they do say, oh, if I look out the window I could probably see you, if I could see that far. But yeah, it's beautiful and it's great to be near Seattle as well. You know, working for Microsoft, and it's been great to be able to just sort of go down to Seattle to go to Ripman. It's a very short journey and beyond the same time.

Mark Smith: 6:27
Do you have any train down?

Scott Durow: 6:28
Yeah, yeah, we the Canadian Power Platform Summit, just after MVP Summit. In fact, that was the last time we saw each other, I think, wasn't it.

Mark Smith: 6:39
That's right, that's right.

Scott Durow: 6:40
And yeah, so I did. I took the bus down, I also took the train as well. I mean the train in North America. It's just not recognizable as trains compared to Europe. In Europe it's like how quick can we build these things to get from A to B, you know, to be the most efficient possible, whereas here it's just more about the journey and just, you know, leisurely, and I think I could probably walk faster than some of the journey segments.

Mark Smith: 7:05
Okay, are they more luxy?

Scott Durow: 7:07
No, not really, it's more. I think they just pull these huge, great container carts and you know all sorts of different things. It's what you see on the movie. Well, growing up in the UK I just saw it on the movies. Right yeah, We've got to race to get across that crossing before the train, because if you don't get across the crossing then you're gonna have to wait for, sort of you know, half an hour before, whereas in the uk, you blink and the train's gone.

Mark Smith: 7:34
So exactly, it's different, cool man. So back on to our question how's the power platform integrate with existing dot net ecosystems? And I gave you a before, but what comes to mind for you in addressing this for the ProCode audience? One other thing I'll add. I have never seen an enterprise deployment on the Power Platform that was purely low-code Never. Yeah, yes, an enterprise. I'm not talking about craplets or shitty little apps. I'm talking about enterprise deployments of the Bower platform. Every single one of them, without fail, have always got a high degree of developer involvement.

Scott Durow: 8:18
Yeah, there's obviously, yes, degrees, I think that's the right word for it. There are varying degrees. Degrees, I think that's the right word for it. There are varying degrees. And you know, we had so much user interface there. We had things that were going on.

Scott Durow: 8:51
You mentioned plugins earlier, right, so extending dataverse, extending the behaviors of the platform, but then also a lot of functionality that was happening more in a sas, so running in Azure and being integrated with there. So, and you mentioned anti-patterns as well. I mean I love anti-patterns. It seems really negative. I mean, I struggle with the concept in a little bit, because you know we're programmed, aren't we almost to be like positive oh, everything's got to be positive. But I think or certainly being British, I think there's a certain attraction in just looking at the negative angle of things, because there's a lot to be learned from mistakes. I think there's perhaps more to be learned from mistakes than there is from success, and that's what anti-patents are about. We've tried this and it didn't work, and we're sharing that information with you. And so enterprise software development has got a whole, a huge number of anti-patterns that have been collected over many, many years and, I think, a lot of the time, the narrowing of the eyes where pro devs look at these platforms and say, okay, low code. What are you telling me here? So you're going to restrict what I can do and you're going to tell me that I have to use these proprietary systems that don't work in the way that I'm used to working. I mean all these kind of reactions that you get. It's a natural reaction.

Scott Durow: 10:16
But really, if you broaden it and you look at enterprise software architectures, power Platform is no different to any other architectural system. I mean it's Azure in a box. Essentially, I mean that's what it is. Power Platform is actually just simply creating an abstraction layer on top of Azure services and allowing you to orchestrate those and extend them. So you can extend using C-sharp plugins, like you said.

Scott Durow: 10:40
You can extend using TypeScript and the user interface plugins, like you said. You can extend using typescript and the user interface. You can extend by having javascript sitting inside forms and then you can extend using custom connectors, integrating with open api endpoints, maybe azure functions or whatever they are, but then you can also integrate as well. You know you've got so many different integration points like service bus and data flows and synapse link, and you know there's so many different integration points like service bus and data flows and synapse link. There's so many different things, but they're all components that you would have to consider anyway if you were building enterprise software.

Scott Durow: 11:12
So it's not like you're saying if we're creating a system, it's not like it's telling you we're prescribing exactly how you're doing it. You still have to pick the right tools for the right job, and that's no different to any software system. But what low-code is trying to do is it's trying to say that we've learned from a lot of building a lot of different systems. We've learned those anti-patterns, we've learned what the things that actually are hard to do and therefore we're making it easier to fall into. Clay talks about the pit of success right, which always makes me laugh, you know because, in a sense, it is what it's doing.

Scott Durow: 11:50
It's recognizing the anti-pattern kind of methodology. So falling into the pit of success is making it easy for us to succeed, and that's the same as we do with any software component that we choose. I mean, if I was going to build a system today not using Power Platform, I would have to look at all these different libraries. If I'm going to look at the user interface, what am I going to use? Nextjs? Am I going to use React? Whatever Am I going to use for my API layer? How am I going to do that?

Scott Durow: 12:22
What orchestration engine am I going to use? What databases am I going to do that? What orchestration engine am I going to use? You know what databases am I going to use. I'm going to use Azure API management. Or you know how am I going to secure it? What kind of security mechanisms am I going to put in place? Where I'm not going to think about those complex patterns as much. As you know, it's not financially viable to do everything from scratch. So, really, power Platform is no different to any other software architecture. And so you're saying you know you've never seen an enterprise system that's been built purely with low code. I mean, if you take out Power Platform actually, then really, if you look at any enterprise software, I've not seen any single piece of enterprise software built from scratch in the last Interesting.

Mark Smith: 13:17
Yeah, great.

Scott Durow: 13:17
I mean how long you know, since, probably since the days of mainframes where people are doing machine code programming. I mean it's always been about that raising the level of mainframes where people are doing machine code programming. I mean it's always been about that raising of a level of abstraction. And actually I was. I did a talk at a build I don't know if you saw it and it was really along the message of the fact that we talk about low code, right, and I think I did a blog on the power apps blog as well, and one of my straplines which was it's always been about less code. Let's forget about low code. It's always been about less code and that's the point it's about how do we become more efficient.

Scott Durow: 14:00
And you also said modern. You used the word modern earlier and that kind of stood out to me because I think that's what it's about. It's like modern software developers. What does it mean to be a modern software developer? And I think that's a worthwhile question to ask anybody, anyone who's working in software today. How is being a software engineer changed today compared to what it was, even five years ago? And we look at ai such fundamentally changed the way that we can work and the expectations that there are come from software. So yeah, how does the power platform integrate with the software ecosystems? I think there's no different to any other libraries or platforms that we might choose.

Mark Smith: 14:48
Nice. Another scenario that I have and this comes from a real customer largest financial institution in Australia.

Mark Smith: 14:57
They have 60-odd Pega developers that if they want to stay employed, have to get skilled up on the power platform. Because that has become a strategic initiative to migrate 400 applications, yeah, to the power platform. And that was based on a number of factors the licensing costs of pega, the engineering costs of pega, the time to build or the lack of resources also in many cases. And so they started to really rationalize what would be built on what platform. Would it be built on SAP? Would it be built on Pega? Would it be built on Blue Prism? In this case, would it be built on the Power Platform?

Mark Smith: 15:38
The Power Platform was the newcomer to the equation, so one of the challenges was hey, here's 60-odd Pega developers. How do you onboard them to be able to build on the Power Platform in the shortest amount of possible, without saying, hey, just open Copilot and talk to it because they're going to go? Yeah, nah, how do you take them on that? And please don't say go and do PL400, because there's a big disconnect in the market between certification, which generally I find end customers don't give a rip about. There's only two groups that care about certification, maybe three. Microsoft was the third one. Microsoft partners, because they need certification to maintain certain status levels, and then individuals that want to prove they've developed a certain set of skills or they passed an exam. That aside, so what's? As I say, back in the day, there used to be kind of like on ramps to what we had with XRM. If you're going to do this, this is how you do it. Here's the limitations. Don't do that. Do that this way. How would you answer that?

Scott Durow: 17:15
Yeah, it is a difficult one. I mean the certification, I think. I mean I hear what you say about the fact that there's definitely it's not ideal there's a lot of things which don't quite hit the mark in terms of covering the content from a practical perspective. However, you know it's worthwhile. I think it is worthwhile saying that doing that will give you a good starting point. It's like a springboard right, you do that, so it's better than not doing it at all. I think that's the point.

Mark Smith: 17:45
Yeah, knowledge transfer happens and I think fundamentally, that's what it's all about. This is why I never really got upset when I had staff that I would know get cheat sheets and stuff to prep for exams. Yeah, because the thing is, knowledge transfer was still happening. Yeah, they were still understanding a concept and getting the right answer and prepping for that exam. So knowledge transfer was happening, which is the fundamental reason why I think certification is good, and also it points out blind spots. Yeah, yes, the failings of certification is that it's academic and what I mean by that. The Microsoft process is built based on academia principles from way back in the day and, like I used to write the exams in Microsoft, so I kind of know the things that you have to do around what's called legal defensibility of a wrong answer and things like that. Right, there's very much tight control. The problem is it abstracts away from reality in many situations. Yeah, and there's what we call the Microsoft answer and then the actual answer.

Scott Durow: 18:48
I always think, every time when I do these, I was like well, you know, it depends, and you know, know, I did this project and actually you end up like getting into this analysis, paralysis, and actually that's the wrong way to take these exams. You totally, you gotta know totally what is the syllabus actually asking? Do you know this particular piece of information.

Mark Smith: 19:06
That's it. That's a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

Scott Durow: 19:09
So anyhow we digress yeah, but once you've done done that, once you've got that in the bag, I think it gives you a good service area. Now it's funny you should mention that co-pilot, because I think if we wind back maybe three years ago, then one of the biggest reasons I saw Power Platform projects going off the rails somewhat was because the developers were approaching it in from a perspective that they've done, every other project that they've done. You know, we're using the technologies they used to be using for the soap for the last, however many years. So it's like, okay, well, we're used to it, we're experienced, experienced building software using this technology. We can actually create something very, very quickly because we've done it many, many times. So the expectation is then okay, right, well, power Platform, you're telling me, power Platform and low code is meant to solve so many different problems and make it easier for me to build software. Therefore, the expectation is I should just be able to rock up, open a browser and start to build enterprise software.

Scott Durow: 20:18
And that's never going to happen. You can't expect that from no matter what. There's always going to be a learning curve, and so really it's down to, I think, what Power Platform does, which is quite unique, I think, is that the return that you get it goes up over time and the cost of building apps goes down. There may be initially quite a high transition period where you've got to do all of the learning, but then actually, very quickly, it's almost like an exponential reduction in cost of building apps and so. But my advice would be to learn by example. I mean, there's a whole ton of samples out there. You can go to places like PMP sites you can go to. You can use Copilot to create stuff now to see what it does. So let's, for example, the new Copilot functionality in stuff now to see what it does. So let's, for example, the new Copilot functionality in Power Platform. Building allows you to do multi-table relationships so you can describe it and then you can have a conversation about your data. You can see how it builds the structure. It's not going to be perfect, obviously, but it's going to give you a very good starting point and then you can then see how it builds the app. You can see what it does in terms of creating an app that's responsive, that works in multiple different device formats. You can see how it creates an offline profile to allow you to go off, because it does this just with the app. You're even asking for it to do it. So it's almost like one of the things they say about AI.

Scott Durow: 21:46
I think which is probably going to be quite revolutionary in teaching kids is that in the past, it's always been about a teacher at the front of the class teaching a large group of people. That means that there's always been this challenge. It's like how can you teach that's going to suit everybody's style of learning 100%? That's really hard, whereas with AI, it was almost like we're getting to a point where you can have an individual tutor for every single member of that class. And I think that's where we're moving with Copilot is that it's now working at your speed. It's talking your language, it's actually doing things on your request, the speed that you are learning in the particular area you're learning, and so I think that's not to be underestimated, and I think we're going to see more and more of that going forward. So that will make a big difference, and I think if you look at github copilot. I mean, I'm massive, massive fan of github copilot.

Scott Durow: 22:40
I've been using it from a pro code perspective for a long time since it came out. You know writing pcfs and writing. You know c sharp's great. You know it does a lot of things and it's they're really good at doing programming, creating algorithms and sort things. And then it does. It's almost feels like it's reading your mind but ultimately you still have to fill in a lot of the other things.

Scott Durow: 23:00
You have to have knowledge about the context that you're working in. You have to not have the knowledge about security, best practices. You know how are you going to monitor your app, how is it going to get deployed and how are you going to maintain it in production and all of those kind of things. Whereas what Power Platform does is it sort of raises that abstraction to now allow co-pilots to do a huge more in terms of what it's showing you how you can do, because it's building software, a higher level of abstraction, so you get a lot further down the line, a lot quicker. So it's showing you best practices of creating an app and such that you could actually deploy that app. I mean you would be hard pressed to do that with Copilot in GitHub. You couldn't just ask it to do something and then suddenly you've got something you can actually deploy out to people as an end user. You've got a lot more work, and I think that's what's interesting about modern software development.

Scott Durow: 23:53
I think, this is the key it's not specifically Power Platform, it's modern software development is that we have to take this next level of abstraction up, so that in the past there's always been this alluring very quick to get up and running in your IDE. In Visual Studio or VS Code, you can use containerization and you can just create databases. And there it is. It's running on a local dev server, but there's this kind of technical debt that's growing. It's this sort of these icebergs below the surface. That's about like well, how are you going to transition this into a production environment? How are you going to support it? How are you going to do the audits of security? How are you going to make sure that all your users can only have access to the right data? How are you going to make sure that you don't have any data leakage and backup, and how are you going to create your environment?

Scott Durow: 24:40
So there's all these things that you don't want to think about, and traditional software development leaves that to a lot later stage, and I think that's why Agile came along, trying to have this very short product increments. It's like quickly get it, make sure that every single product increment is deployable. And the reason we're doing that is because we're making sure that we think it's forcing us to think about those things, the things that are inconvenient and uncomfortable and I don't want to, because I'm a developer and I just want to churn out code. It's forcing us to do those boring things about how do we support it. But from a modern software development, I think it's actually answering that question in a different way. It's solving in a different way. It's saying that actually, by building in the framework that the platform gives us, all those guardrails are created for us, all that observability and that monitorability and the governance and the security auditability is all there just as a given when you develop within those particular boundaries.

Mark Smith: 25:40
Back to my question Is there any resources that you'd point people to, or are we lacking resources that we could take people that are coming off other, you know, heavy developed platforms and get them onboarded quicker that really are coming from a pro code perspective rather than a low code?

Scott Durow: 25:58
yeah, so one of the things that we're working on in advocacy is samples. I mean, that's what we want to do is to give enterprise grade samples, and we're working on a project which is converting one of the samples enterprise samples that's been built already in GitHub under the Azure Samples repo and it's called the Contosa Real Estate and it's got so many different components in there. Some of them are open source, some of them are bespoke, built from the ground up, and so what we're doing is we're showing how you can use Power Platform in tandem with many of the different Azure resources. It's not let's rebuild the thing, it's not like. Let's show how easy it is to do it in Power Platform.

Scott Durow: 26:43
And, to your point, no enterprise software great software can use entirely Power Platform these days because, let's face it, I mean, if you think about the composable architecture diagram that quite often gets shown in Power Platform presentations, you know you've got three layers At the bottom, you've got your HR, you've got your finance systems, your SAPs and all that the stuff that really can't change. You know there's massive friction to change and I think that's what defines enterprise software. Yeah, that is the single piece that defines enterprise software is the fact that there is huge amounts of things that are just not changeable. Enterprise software is not green field. You know, very rarely is it green field. Even if it is green field, like a bank, for example, let's say you and I were going to start a bank tomorrow. That's a scary prospect. But let's say we were going to do that, then you're not going to go and build your banking system, are you? You're going to bring that in and that's right off the shelf, exactly yeah so from enterprise software you've got stuff that can't change.

Scott Durow: 27:46
So then there's going to be that layer in the middle between your power platform, the stuff that's highly agile, highly easy to build, you can experiment, you can innovate, there's always a middle layer that then bring that you have to integrate with. And so what we're doing is we're trying to create a sample that you can learn from. So we've realized exactly the same thing that you know. You're pointing out that we've gone through a period of time where the focus has been so much on low code that all the samples that have been being put out there have been almost hypothetical, pure low code samples, that the pendulum is kind of swung too far in one direction. So in advocacy, we're trying to do that by creating. We've recognized the gap in that and we're trying to create that. And so in Vegas, what's it called that? Power Platform Community Conference, correct, yes, we will be making that as a public repo and doing some sessions on that.

Mark Smith: 28:46
Nice, I like that. I like that. One of the other things that I have noticed and it kind of speaks to this developer. But then let's say, go up to the enterprise architecture layer and there's a big difference between software architecture and enterprise architecture. Yeah, and I wasn't clarifying that for you, I was clarifying that for the listeners and I wasn't clarifying that for you, I was clarifying that for the listeners.

Mark Smith: 29:09
And what I have noticed is that there has been no messaging from Microsoft that is targeted at enterprise architects.

Mark Smith: 29:19
What Microsoft enterprise architects have heard and I'm talking about from predominantly Microsoft field sellers is that this amazing low-code platform, anybody can build solutions on it, and the enterprise architect hears those words and they go so anybody could build anything, and I know anybody means they don't have any concept of ALM, they don't have any concept of security, they don't have any concept. They've not been educated on these things and we're going to allow them to build on this platform that could potentially be plugged into different systems, and I hear this kind of thing. This sounds like Excel in the cloud, what you're providing here and we will never we've learned from enterprise applications built on Excel accidentally or become mission critical applications. We're not going to allow that to happen again. Enterprise applications built on Excel accidentally or become mission-critical applications. We're not going to allow that to happen again, yeah, right. And so what I see is CTOs and CIOs turning to the enterprise architecture team and saying what do you think of this power platform? And they're like, yeah, it's not going to be our enterprise platform of choice.

Mark Smith: 30:25
It's not going to be part of our enterprise mix, because anybody can build on it. It can't be serious. The problem is there's no investigation from that point right. People just cover their butts. We're out and decisions are made, and I think there's this whole segment like if you go and look at ServiceNow, if you go and look at Pega, if you go and look at pega, all their plays to enterprise architects why this is why you should trust us, why you should build it. We've got a superior product, I believe, than service now and in many cases in pega. But because they've been positioned differently, they are adopted even at much higher price points and things. Because they've been positioned differently in market and I just I'm not saying it should go away from the personas who are positioned too, but I feel that we've lacked the enterprise architect conversation coming from Microsoft and unfortunately, microsoft field sellers don't know how to have their conversation.

Scott Durow: 31:25
Yeah, no, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

Mark Smith: 31:27
And it's using the terminology. There needs to be a pattern put out there.

Scott Durow: 31:30
It's using like the, you have to use the language that enterprise architects are used to using, because you know they are a different group of people speaking a different language, because they have to think about a much broader set of challenges than you know your application architecture or your software architecture. I mean that's why I really liked you know your application architecture or your software architecture. I mean that's why I really liked you know the Cloud Lighthouse white paper that you put out recently. I mean I think that did a very good job of speaking that enterprise architect language of looking at a power platform. You know and, yeah, you're right, we need more of that. And it's patent at the end of the day, because that's really where it doesn't matter which level. You're right, we need more of that. And it's patents at the end of the day, because that's really where it doesn't matter which level you're at, looking at it's patents.

Scott Durow: 32:14
That's how traditional software engineering has always been built around. You know my bookshelf has got like books. You know of enterprise software architecture patterns, as well as right down to the gang of four design patterns in. You know of enterprise software architecture patterns, as well as right down to the gang of four design patterns in, you know, software engineering At every single level of abstraction. So, yeah, the more content that we can do, I agree on that. And yeah, and also showing how traditional enterprise software still apply. That's the thing. It's not a new. That's the point. It's like we're not asking people to change the way that people think about software. It's not a new, that's the point. We're not asking people to change the way that people think about software, and that's a misconception.

Scott Durow: 32:51
I think that comes from that composable architecture diagram, right, you know people see that and perhaps the messaging is not given well enough, that it's not an either, or we're not saying throw out everything else you've been doing and now just do it.

Mark Smith: 33:07
Yeah, yeah, scott, we're up on time. It's been so good talking to you.

Scott Durow: 33:14
We might need to do another episode. That sounds great. That'll be my pleasure. It's always great talking to you, Mark.

Mark Smith: 33:18
Hey, thanks for listening. I'm your host, mark Smith, otherwise known as the NZ365 guy. Is there a guest you would like to see on the show from Microsoft? Please message me on LinkedIn and I'll see what I can do. Final question for you how will you create with Copilot today, ka kite?