Transcript
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Welcome to the Ecosystem Show.
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We're thrilled to have you with us here.
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We challenge traditional mindsets and explore innovative approaches to maximizing the value of your software estate.
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We don't expect you to agree with everything.
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Challenge us, share your thoughts and let's grow together.
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Now let's dive in it's showtime.
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Welcome back to the Ecosystems podcast.
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Glad to have you with us.
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Sorry, it's not Ecosystems podcast.
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Ecosystems show it's the Ecosystems show.
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Yeah, yes, because YouTube prefer to call them shows rather than podcasts, because they feel like a show is video, includes video, and this is what this does.
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And who wouldn't want to see our charming faces?
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Exactly, exactly, exactly, includes video, and this is what this does.
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And who wouldn't want to see our charming faces?
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Exactly, exactly exactly, um, even my especially, especially now?
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that I'm, I'm back from, I'm back from from, um, uh, causing an airplane, an emergency diversion of an airplane.
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So, uh, I'm, I'm, wow, I'm looking well, if I do say so myself.
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So you, you, you on an air, on a on a flight, caused an emergency situation that had to divert and landed an airport.
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Yes, yes, wow, which I mean.
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It's not like.
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It's not like.
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It wasn't a goal, it wasn't a goal of mine and I was not part of.
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I was barely conscious, I was not part of the decision-making process.
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Yeah, wow, wow, yeah, wow, wow.
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So medical instance eh.
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Yes, yes, it was not the most fun I've ever had on a plane.
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I bet I bet Frightening really, but glad everything pulled through and you're okay.
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That's the good outcome of this.
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As you can see, there's only the two of us today.
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Our three colleagues weren't able to join us, but I'm sure they'll be back in the future.
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Not too long Is Will back in Scotland.
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That's just where we say Will is when he's missing.
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Right, right, I assume he's back in his manor.
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Do you remember when we did the show, kim, and we, for whatever reason, we recorded two episodes back to back on the same night, on the same day, and Will, not wanting it to appear that we had recorded them back to back, the rest of us just went and changed our clothes.
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Will took down the thing, the art on his wall, and swapped it out, and swapped it for different art.
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And when we talk about the art on Will's wall, what was it like?
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A red cow head, yeah.
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Hanging like he had shot a cow or something like that.
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It's what I would call eclectic art, right?
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Eclectic, I think, is the phrase that you would use for his artwork of choice.
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So I don't know.
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Just lately, oh, I tell you what a little personal story Today.
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In what's the time now?
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In my time it is eight, a bit after eight in the morning, at one o'clock.
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Today I will have my first food that I haven't eaten for seven days.
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So you did it, huh.
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I've done it.
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Yeah, Water only seven days.
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Dropped about five kgs in seven days.
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As an American, I don't know how much that is.
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Yeah, sorry, I don't know what it is.
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I guess that's good.
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I guess it's good.
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Let me just do the conversion.
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I think it's about two and a half kilograms to the pound.
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It is 11.2 pounds.
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There you go, there you go, good job.2 pounds.
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There you go, there you go, good job.
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11 pounds, nice one um.
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So yeah, I'm looking forward to my first meal.
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What?
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What's it gonna be an apple?
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not a, not a cheeseburger or something.
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It's gonna be an apple.
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No, no, no, no, no, no, because you gotta, you gotta.
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You know your body's gone, like your stomach particularly is, you know, uh has been operating for seven days as such, apart from you know detoxing.
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That's wild, and so yeah, well, actually I'll take a banana first, I'll wait about an hour, and then I'll have an apple, and I'll probably wait another hour and then I'll have a chicken and vegetable soup, and that just so your system can turn back on without you know blowing it out, type thing.
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So is this the first time that you've done this?
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No, I've done seven days.
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So it's 10 years ago when I did my last seven day fast.
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And then, as I, when I say fast, that for me, um, the way my brain runs is, I am very.
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It has to be no food whatsoever, no coffee, nothing, no liquid outside of water.
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So it's a water only fast.
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And in my past, about 19, 20 years ago, in one year, I did two 21-day fasts in one year.
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That's wild, that.
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What's wild?
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Water only um the first time I did a seven day fast, which is prior to that again, I was working, still full-time, and I was in kind of manual labor role, yet I was still able.
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Your body's amazing and what it can achieve and do and stuff, especially when you go over the about the three-day marking for males and and um, the difference between males and female fasting are worlds apart.
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There's no correlation or similarity that that you can do so.
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For example, the rule of thumb for females is that they should never fast the week prior to their period at all at all.
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It will just be because this is and it's interesting, I've learned you know, guys pretty much have one hormone as such, testosterone, running through the systems, um, where women have um, estrogen, testosterone and progesterone, I think the other one is um, and so fasting can really fuck up their hormones massively.
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So there's there's nowhere near the amount of studies done on female fasting as there are on males.
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Interesting, yeah, I crazy thing.
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I haven't felt hungry at all.
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Not not once.
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Not once have I thought, oh, I should have a craving or anything like that.
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And I think it's because for the last six months I've been doing intermittent fasting, which is seven days a week.
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I only eat after 12, um in the day and before eight, and at 8 pm at night I stop eating.
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So a 16 by 8, what that?
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What that's referred to, and so I think it made.
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This is probably the easiest fast I've had to do from a no kind of, you know, cravings or anything like that.
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It's been amazing awesome.
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Well, you, the the ecosystem show, come for the uh, come for the tech and stay for the armchair, medical or nutrition advice.
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Just just testimony, testimony right mark's experience is not an indicator or a recommendation, so it's uh yeah, so exactly, you know, as I say, do your research, do your research, do your research.
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So, um, I tell you what one word has been popping up everywhere at the moment for me and of course that means I'm kind of focusing on a new area and that word is agentic.
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So I had to understand what does this word mean, agentic and um?
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It's basically like.
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Actually, I'll read you the definition um from chat gpt um.
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It refers to being agent, like or having the characteristics of an agent.
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In a philosophical context, it often describes an individual's capacity to act independently and make their own free choices.
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In terms of ai and technology, it describes systems or processes that can act autonomously or make decisions without human intervention, effectively mimicking human agency.
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What do you think about this?
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Well, you know so.
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So a couple of thoughts.
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One, um, for some reason this fired in my brain when you were reading this, right, but you know, when you um, uh, we've had we, we humans, have had other humans acting as our agent for a long time, right, so people of a people of a certain age will remember the travel agent you know, remember that was, that was the only way you could book a flight for a very long time.
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Right, you had you had to call a travel agent because only they had the you know weird, uh, command line terminal that they could go book you a flight.
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Galileo, I think, was their, their, their back-end system is two.
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There's galileo, and I forget the other one, which is still the way all flights happen around the world is still in those two Amadeus and Sabre.
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Yes, there's three.
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Yes and well, and those were Amadeus and Sabre are, like you said, those are two, I know, still used by almost every airline on the planet to manage their flight operations, right?
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But so, anyway, you would have these travel agents and a human would hire a travel agent to act on their behalf to go book them, to go book them a flight.
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Or, if you are, we said, people of a certain age, well, people of a certain level of wealth and fame might hire an agent to represent them in a contract negotiation, say a sports agent or a talent agent, or you know what have you.
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So, you know, it's a kind of like co-pilot, right?
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We've taken this word that has real meaning in human to human contexts and we've grafted it onto this paradigm of artificial intelligence.
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And it's, it's, it's, you know, it's similar to how Windows, you know, we called, we called it Windows.
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or, you know, desktop operating systems have always had this metaphor of the folder and the desktop itself you know so so in some ways it's really just, you know, it's using concepts that are familiar as a way to describe what's happening in AI.
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So that was a completely in the moment thought that I had when you were reading that definition.
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Yeah, it's so valid and I think that I think by Q1 next year, I think this whole concept of agents is really going to sink in for people, and I don't know if you saw the announcements this week from um uh open ai, but they brought out real-time voice-to-voice um apis and yeah, it did.
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And you know what?
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What's totally epic about this, you literally will be able to create an agent that is your outbound calling agent and so, let's say, your airline mucks things up or whatever.
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You'll be able to say to your agent hey, can you put a call in and make a claim or do whatever.
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They'll call up that contact center as a human level voice.
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They will not be able to tell the difference and say, hey, listen, this is about my flight, here's my date, like they'll have all your details that you've given it.
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And when they go, oh no, sorry, we can't do anything about it, they'll refer to policy 5963 on their website and go well, according to your policy, here it says you, like they'll have all that detail, like we would never bother going and reading all that stuff, right?
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first of all, I just I've been having the weirdest feud with the, with my, with our property management company that we're you know we pay service fees to like condo fees.
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They have taken, uh, they, they took, uh, I'll you the details, but five months ago I spoke with them about solving a problem that they themselves have created and they finally got back to me yesterday and, lo and behold, they needed five months to actually make the problem worse.
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So I would love property management cable companies all of these hated industries right To just have an agent that calls and deals with them for me, and you know, and that agent has it, understands all the laws, the bylaws of your area, like how you can get action from them, and like the detail.
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And so you imagine that operator on the line, man, they're just going to not know what hits them.
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All of a sudden, these very knowledgeable people are calling in agents.
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No, all of a sudden, all of a sudden, the airline or the property management company, they're going to have their own agent and it's just two agents are going to duke it out.
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It's going to be like the weirdest, the weirdest pub trivia you've had, you know, like when two nerds get together and argue about the minute details of a problem.
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I actually think that will get to a solution quicker, right?
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Because what happens, right is that human nature is kick the can down the road, right?
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You got a problem Like I don't know if you've noticed, in the airlines, and particularly was prevalent when I was flying Virgin Australia and, you know, frequently in Australia.
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And so you'd go to the check-in desk and say, listen, can I upgrade my seat to XYZ?
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And they're like, oh, I'll go and ask in the lounge.
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They'll do that.
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So you go to the lounge, yeah, can you upgrade your seat?
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Oh, listen, when you go on the aircraft, ask the person that when you're boarding the aircraft and what they do is this kick down, like I'm not going to say no to you, but I'm going to kick it down.
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And it's the next person in the chain.
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and of course you get there and they're like, oh no, they should have done that for you back at the service desk and it's too late, right and it's like but the thing is, I think if you have this agentent interaction and their goal is a solution, they're not going to do any of that kicking the can down the road.
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They will.
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Hey, yes, you know the policy, I know the policy.
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We're going to do this.
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Bang Solved.
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I think it'll strip out all that crap.
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Yeah, you know, but I think it'll be very interesting to see how, in this and I want to, in, I do, I want to, I want to lose track of, kind of talking about how, the, how early days of these announcements that we've seen over the last, you know, month or so have have gone and you know how I, how we think they're playing.
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But before we get there, I do, I do think that it'll be interesting to see how the personalities of the humans to whom the agents are accountable, basically like the personalities of their creators or the personalities of their masters, what happens there?
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Right, and I'll give you, I'll give you, I'll give you a scenario.
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Right, there are, there are plenty of people in the world who you know, you are definitely one of them.
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You know, I have things, we all listen, we all have things that we really, we do want to control, right, like, for me, my, my weakness are slides.
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Right, I don't know one, I don't like anyone else's slides, but for the most part, I am very happy to delegate something.
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You know, if I think back, you know, if I think of my experience as as a manager and a supervisor of people in the workplace, right, the people who I work best with have always been you know, as a, you know as direct reports of mine have always been people who are super autonomous, super willing to sort of go do their own thing, because I am perfectly happy for my team to go do their own thing.
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Yeah, I really just care sort of about the result at the end and whether or not you've acted, you know, like a decent human being in order to get there.
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But I don't, I don't care where you are, I don't care what you do with your time, I don't care how you do.
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You know, I mean, I don't care about most of those things, but I think that there is a whole.
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So for me, the idea of turning an agent loose to go deal with things and to be autonomous in that way and to report back to me and to come back to me with the result, and then we'll decide if we like the result.
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Personality type that is going to be very uncomfortable with the idea of turning someone loose, whether it's an AI agent or a human agent, turning someone loose to go do the thing for them or on their behalf, and then add into that the layer of what if you are dissatisfied?
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What if the human master is dissatisfied with the outcome that the agent has produced?
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Right?
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So the airline's agent and your agent have added about the policy and they come to a conclusion.
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Well, is the human.
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If the human doesn't get the result they're looking for, are they going to be pissed?
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And I think the answer is yes.
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So here's the, here's the thing, and this, this comes, I don't know to a degree, to a maturity level in understanding the value of time.
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Right, and one of the modern-day philosophers I follow is a gentleman I can't remember his name, it's a very multi-long name, nivelle I think he goes by as his handle In fact that's his first name, neville and and what he says is that he worked up early on in his life the concept of money and time and how they interrelate so he said if it's going to take me two hours to go to a mall and buy something, but I could buy that online and have it shipped to my door, no brainer.
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Even if there's a career fee, no brainer.
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Right, and he go.
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He looked at every area of his life and said is the?
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He said like, let's say he go, has a product that fails and he realizes the time to get it corrected even he could get corrected is going to take out of his life, is going to be more than what he values.
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That product He'll like oh well, let it go.
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Yeah, who cares?
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Who cares?
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Because I value my time more importantly than my bank account.
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I have the funds to do it.
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I'd rather pay for it to be done.
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And he and he talked about his relationship with his mother and stuff, where she would ask him to do stuff and he would just get someone else to do it and pay them because it was a good use of his time.
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It was just, and I think that that's what that's going to come back to.
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Is that for me, like?
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I'm like, bring it on, because, whatever the answer is, I'm happy.
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I just didn't have to go through the process and stress and argument with somebody on a phone call to get the outcome that I am seeking is that?
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What if the airline said to their agent programming listen, make sure you do everything you can to not pay out.
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Right, you need to use tactics of deflection and avoidance and ambiguity and stuff Like the Talco in New Zealand Spark.
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They got a law case against them because they made their pricing so confusing on purpose to deceive the customers over time.
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It was.
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It was brought to the commission and they were found that they tactfully went out of their way to screw customers over on purpose, so it's ryanair, but as an electricity was it an electricity company telecom telecom a telecom, a telco so it was equivalent, equivalent to British Telecom, the same entity Government, originally government loan telecommunication became privatized and then went through this process of doing everything to screw their customers over, knowing they had no choice, there's nobody else they could go to.
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Long-time listeners or repeat listeners of the podcast will will, of course, appreciate that the eco or the show, the ecosystem show, takes a long running position that Ryanair is the worst company on the planet.
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So just just so we can get as we can get, that out there again, um classic classic, the worst, the worst so back to agents right now.
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Like I got chat gpt yesterday to make me a 40 hour course to go deep into agents and learn it and understand it and chat gpt make a course for you yeah, and like it, gives me, it goes out and does all the research and says I recommend you know, uh, you know, on monday in the morning, you, you're going to spend four hours, you're going to get hands-on, and I've got it doing it.
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I said I don't want just a single view of this.
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I don't want just Microsoft's view, I don't want just OpenAI's view, I want AWS's, I want Google's as well in that mix.
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And cheers, cheers.
00:21:11.728 --> 00:21:14.342
I hope to have one of those later today.
00:21:17.795 --> 00:21:18.257
And it will allow.
00:21:18.257 --> 00:21:21.405
Well, it is 8.30 at night on my end, Exactly exactly.
00:21:21.405 --> 00:21:23.000
We're 12 hours separate here.
00:21:23.623 --> 00:21:24.325
I understand.
00:21:24.325 --> 00:21:26.895
So yeah, going deep on that Now.
00:21:26.895 --> 00:21:35.268
Another thing announcement made this morning by OpenAI which I find intriguing is they brought out this idea of ChatGPT Canvas.
00:21:39.936 --> 00:21:41.000
So is that like co-pilot pages?
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:41.319
It's identical.
00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:41.760
It's almost like.
00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:43.965
When I saw the interface I'm like it's identical.
00:21:44.105 --> 00:21:44.386
This is.
00:21:44.386 --> 00:21:45.796
I was like what the fuck?
00:21:45.855 --> 00:21:52.363
it's identical so I'm currently I am currently super annoyed with my co-pilot.
00:21:52.363 --> 00:22:03.967
So so the background, the background on this is that, um, we uh, several weeks back we started basically the cloud lighthouse policy.
00:22:03.967 --> 00:22:12.144
The company policy for whether you get a co-pilot for M three 65 license is if you ask for one and you shall have.
00:22:12.144 --> 00:22:16.130
So Mark has not asked for his yet, so he does not have one, correct.
00:22:16.130 --> 00:22:17.596
So anyway, I have one.
00:22:17.596 --> 00:22:36.509
But when I saw the co-pilot pages announcement a few weeks back, I thought to myself, because this is probably something that you and I should unpack the different ways that you and I use or look at AI in our personal, like in our own individual work life.
00:22:36.509 --> 00:22:45.421
Right, but so anyway, I saw this announcement for Copilot Pages and I thought now that that is useful.
00:22:45.421 --> 00:22:46.921
It's not earth shattering.
00:22:46.994 --> 00:22:49.045
It's not groundbreaking, but it's it's.
00:22:49.045 --> 00:22:52.659
It's massively useful and I cannot.
00:22:52.659 --> 00:22:57.749
So I cannot get it to appear in the Cloud Lighthouse tenant.
00:22:57.749 --> 00:23:07.178
And what annoys me right now is that I have asked Copilot how to make Copilot pages appear and it is not aware.
00:23:07.178 --> 00:23:10.646
It's not aware that that capability has not yet been offered to me.
00:23:10.935 --> 00:23:12.863
It's just the rollout ring right.
00:23:12.863 --> 00:23:14.059
It started mid-September.
00:23:14.059 --> 00:23:21.984
The US tenants would have got it first up, you know, in specific areas, and then it'll be their high usage, you know, customers.
00:23:22.935 --> 00:23:24.663
We're a US northeast.
00:23:24.934 --> 00:23:26.358
But do you have 100,000 users?
00:23:27.803 --> 00:23:29.105
in your tenant?
00:23:29.105 --> 00:23:29.606
No, we are.
00:23:30.458 --> 00:23:41.890
Microsoft got customers of that size on Copilot right, so I think it's those ones that probably get it first and then rolls out to ultimately the rats and mice and stuff.
00:23:41.890 --> 00:23:44.057
That are just two or three licenses around the world.
00:23:44.118 --> 00:23:48.798
But I tell you what Eventually, Microsoft's most valued partner will get the feature.
00:23:49.338 --> 00:23:50.540
Exactly exactly.
00:23:50.540 --> 00:24:00.925
So I find this intriguing and my question that jumps to mind is did Microsoft do a deal with OpenAI?
00:24:00.925 --> 00:24:05.063
Because when I look at the conversation thread, they've been working on this for about two years.
00:24:05.063 --> 00:24:36.883
Did Microsoft have a deal with OpenAI that they obviously will know way before the public about feature development and stuff based on their relationship, did they do a thing and said, hey, can we announce ours first and get that feature and we'll build on it and we'll put the, the Microsoft skin over the top, which, remember, satya, in his keynote, calls this UI for AI, which is a really, really it's this.
00:24:36.903 --> 00:24:45.655
Then, this week, once again, I've been doing a bunch of work in this space and it's really blowing my mind up large what ui for ai really means.
00:24:45.655 --> 00:25:09.424
Because I was doing some research and I googled a service now, um, sap, oracle, you know the Oracle's HR system, sap's HR system, workday Salesforce, maybe one other and I searched for what was there.
00:25:09.424 --> 00:25:16.383
So first I did a prompt that asked for what were the names of the AI tools that they had for each of those brands.
00:25:16.383 --> 00:25:23.624
It came back and then I searched those up, looking just for screenshots of their interfaces right Of their chat.
00:25:23.624 --> 00:25:30.267
So I ended up with a on a PowerPoint slide with maybe six of these different things.
00:25:30.914 --> 00:25:51.392
The problem with each product producing its own chat experience like this is that employees in the organization that are already overwhelmed by the 50 apps that they have to use each day have now got 50 different AI tools to interact just with the data inside that data set.
00:25:51.392 --> 00:25:52.717
It's not holistic.