Mike Hartley on The MVP Show

[Mark]: 2:06

today's guest is from rugby england he received his first mvp award in twenty twenty one he's a community leader and he's involved as in the microsoft community including participating in the power platform school for mentors awesome program he's the founder and co host of all things we don't talk about podcast and we're going to make sure that's linked in the show note so you can take a look he does that with fellow mvp alison mallen the amazing allison boy i love that lady where they talk about talk people about issues like mental health diversity inclusion lgbt q plus rights and genders for these various communities if you haven't worked out who this is you can find him on twitter at hat three six five or check out his blog hard the midlands co uk welcome to the show mike hartley

[Mike]: 3:06

woo an awesome thank you mark for having me it is so good to uh hear your voice once again you've been much missed over here my friend

[Mark]: 3:16

oh man i you know i i follow the chats and stuff and i'm like i miss i miss london i miss london

[Mike]: 3:25

and we miss you

[Mark]: 3:25

and fancy going to lockdown you know yeah thanks so much going to lockdown like we have you know for the last two years is ridiculous so

[Mike]: 3:33

yeah

[Mark]: 3:34

uh tell me who is mike carty what does maccarty get up to up to when he's not working

[Mike]: 3:43

if you ask my misses i'm working all the time it seems um yeah so i'm rapidly approaching the grand milestone of five o next year um

[Mark]: 3:57

spring chicken land my

[Mike]: 3:58

yeah

[Mark]: 3:58

friends spring chicken land

[Mike]: 4:01

and uh yeah i um few years back decided to reinvent myself a bit reinvigorate the career uh i saw people my age costing to re retirement rather than

[Mark]: 4:19

hm

[Mike]: 4:20

enjoying what they'd got um but outside of that i'm a big motor sport fan massive

[Mark]: 4:28

the alchemist one

[Mike]: 4:28

petrol head as is my dear wife and our oldest son is as well um so f one mo gp basically anything that races will be interested in it will you even watch tractor racing before now

[Mark]: 4:46

wow

[Mike]: 4:48

and yeah um i am a rugby fan so yeah i live in the town of rugby which is where the sport was born

[Mark]: 4:59

no

[Mike]: 5:01

and everywhere you go in this town they're very very keen to tell you about it you learn very quick after you move

[Mark]: 5:08

it's a sport it's a sport of gentlemen isn't it's a sport of gentlemen

[Mike]: 5:12

yeah except when you see them on the pitch being

[Mark]: 5:15

and and soccer or football is the the sport of thugs is that right

[Mike]: 5:20

yeah yeah i don't like football that's the thing i've

[Mark]: 5:24

yeah

[Mike]: 5:24

never liked well no i used to like football and then it i don't know it became all oscar worthy performances and

[Mark]: 5:36

p madonnas

[Mike]: 5:37

yeah yeah and whereas rugby it's kind of all raw and

[Mark]: 5:44

yeah

[Mike]: 5:44

what you see is what you get the there's no pretense on the pitch they'll they'll what you see is what you get the there's no pretense on the pitch they'll they'll be their blood pouring from the head and telling everybody i'm fine let me carry be their blood pouring from the head and telling everybody i'm fine let me carry on playing on playing

[Mark]: 5:55

yep you

[Mike]: 5:56

so yeah

[Mark]: 5:57

you're so you're so right it became it became new zealand's national sport and i remember in one game one of the legends of our sport had his nuts sack ripped right open he just said tape it up and went and carried on playing it was wrapped on right he got wrapped on with a sprig and it

[Mike]: 6:15

oh

[Mark]: 6:15

was torn right away he literally they got some tape taped it back on he went straight back on the field playing you imagine somebody playing football doing that my gosh i'd have an ambulance on the field and in

[Mike]: 6:28

oh

[Mark]: 6:28

five minutes they would be wanting to you know man

[Mike]: 6:31

yeah

[Mark]: 6:32

just different game right

[Mike]: 6:33

yeah i mean let's face it they they stub their toe and that's it it's major drama and what have you and

[Mark]: 6:41

mm hm

[Mike]: 6:41

yeah not for me um and then um actually after a lifelong declaration of hatred for the sport a couple of years ago i ended up essentially bedridden for quite a few weeks and it

[Mark]: 6:58

mhm

[Mike]: 6:58

coincided with the cricket world cup which

[Mark]: 7:01

well

[Mike]: 7:03

yes that cricket world cup mark um

[Mark]: 7:06

i know

[Mike]: 7:06

and

[Mark]: 7:07

that i know the one cause i was in london at that time

[Mike]: 7:10

yeah and i ended up watching nearly every single match of that and got hooked on cricket ever since

[Mark]: 7:19

wow

[Mike]: 7:19

so yeah

[Mark]: 7:20

so you watch you watch the kiwis have it stolen by the english team so you watch you watch the kiwis have it stolen by the english team

[Mike]: 7:26

i watched the english win

[Mark]: 7:27

good

[Mike]: 7:27

a well deserved victory after

[Mark]: 7:30

i got up

[Mike]: 7:30

a hard fought gladiatorial match

[Mark]: 7:32

there was no way as a bad call by the umpire anyhow any digress listen i'm really keen to understand your podcast tell us about your podcast and why people should be going over and having to listen

[Mike]: 7:47

yeah so i've been i've been a big champion for speaking out about mental health issues for a number of years now i have my own battles with mental health uh that i talk about very very openly and whenever i put a tweet out about it or mentioned it i'd get

[Mark]: 8:17

what

[Mike]: 8:17

people messaging me and direct messages or at ignite london i i had people find me and it kind of just sort of sneak up to the side of me and they'd be like that's really brave i'm like well it shouldn't be i mean if i'd got a broken leg i would tell you i've got a broken leg um and

[Mark]: 8:48

time

[Mike]: 8:51

the stigma really bugged me it really wound me up that people felt that for them to be able to be open about this stuff they needed to be brave um and there there is a lot

[Mark]: 9:11

is responsibility

[Mike]: 9:11

of stigma there's a lot of employers who will penalize you for having mental health struggles it is getting better but there is still a lot of old school companies and it wound me up it really wound me up and the more i talked about it and start to be open about it the more i realized the other areas um at the time i started thinking of this podcast idea and i thought i need a co host and a co owner of the podcast so allison was the perfect choice um 'cause she is just awesome she is just brilliant and people are a so a ease around her and we decided that there were lots of subjects that we as a microsoft community don't really talk about that openly and so she came up with a fantastic name the things we don't talk about and yeah we just have people on who are willing to share their experiences um it's not published very often because a my

[Mark]: 10:33

i is

[Mike]: 10:33

time management isn't the best but also i have to face up to my own challenges when i'm producing the podcast and i listen to it and it opens a lot within me that i have to do deal with before i can go public with publishing it um and it is it's a challenge but it's had a real impact and i think if this one really good thing that's come out of covid is we as a microsoft community there's been a lot more um where we've had whatsapp groups where we've had virtual pubs and whereas it would normally be we'd see each other at an event and then we'd get along we'd have a few beers we'd have a laugh then we'd go about our lives until the next event the last couple of years we've talked a lot every day we've communicated and we've got to know each of those lives so when allison and i talked about this podcast one of the things allison said to me was she wasn't aware of anybody who sprang to

[Mark]: 11:56

sp

[Mike]: 11:57

mind in our community who was lgbt

[Mark]: 12:04

me you

[Mike]: 12:04

we've actually over the last couple of years there's been people who've spoken out and they've come out and opened up and

[Mark]: 12:12

yeah yeah

[Mike]: 12:13

it's been brilliant it's been really good there's been stigma smashing going on

[Mark]: 12:19

i

[Mike]: 12:20

um so yeah that's what it's about and we've done a lot on mental health we're going to be talking about other subjects um gender race

[Mark]: 12:33

mm hm

[Mike]: 12:33

religion that's a surprising one

[Mark]: 12:37

yeah

[Mike]: 12:38

as well and all sorts of things addictions just things that we're vulnerable to as a community and we always say we're here to support each other

[Mark]: 12:54

yeah

[Mike]: 12:54

so let's do that let's break the break down walls let's open up let's make it a safe space for us all

[Mark]: 13:05

i like it i like it one of the things and you know and i don't know if you've explored this topic at all on the show is that of neurodiversity and until i joined ibm i probably i don't know if i'd ever heard the word before and i went deep end and got training and and learnt so much and what i didn't realize there once again a stigmatized group of people that struggle to get into the workforce because they are neuro diverse and and i'm talking about people with phds that

[Mike]: 13:47

thank

[Mark]: 13:48

have never been employed not because they don't want to be employed but they might have turrets or they might be in a situation where they can't deal with noise like so you're at an open planned office

[Mike]: 14:03

yeah

[Mark]: 14:03

it just freaks them out and or lighting or even smells you know that are somebody's perfume you know go going past or after shave you know would have an impact on them and and and it takes so many different lens but what happens is that when these people are brought into the workforce and allowed to be their authentic self without judgment and not only that the environment is created for them so in other words you've got

[Mike]: 14:33

yes

[Mark]: 14:34

to practically go hey we need to create an environment that you know they it doesn't you know initiate panic attacks and this type of thing and university goes down to things like um you know people that struggle with with dyslexia o or have dyslexia and and speech impediment so many different things you know fall i feel in this range and what we've found and now i say we i'm at a big company now and the number of people we employ on purpose and we provide an environment on purpose now and the skills and the diversity of thinking and the value they bring to the organization is absolutely mind blowing because they see things they see patterns they see things

[Mike]: 15:25

yeah yeah

[Mark]: 15:30

that somebody that's not neuro diverse don't even pick up on and this is powerful

[Mike]: 15:33

yeah

[Mark]: 15:35

when it comes to consulting

[Mike]: 15:36

yes very very much so so um it i mean it it it's funny cause when when i start having the idea for the podcast um it was at ignite london in twenty twenty

[Mark]: 15:50

seven

[Mike]: 15:55

and i actually heard and saw donna saar for the first time

[Mark]: 16:02

yeah great lady

[Mike]: 16:03

and she she mentioned neurodiversity and

[Mark]: 16:08

u

[Mike]: 16:09

it was like a bulb going on because it explained so much and

[Mark]: 16:15

yeah

[Mike]: 16:15

um i actually managed to get to speak to her ignite and i said to a i'm thinking of doing this podcast and she said to me let me know i want to be on that program i want to be on it so

[Mark]: 16:30

man

[Mike]: 16:32

i contacted her when we finally got around to or when i finally got round to get

[Mark]: 16:33

white with high about and

[Mike]: 16:37

anything soared and our very first two episodes are with donna

[Mark]: 16:39

and i

[Mike]: 16:44

saka

[Mark]: 16:44

nice

[Mike]: 16:45

first one talking about neurodiversity and second one talking about diversity and inclusion and yes i mean she's been a real champion but i've got to know some some people with complex neuro diversities in the last in the last couple of years as i've kind of really developed to focus on accessibility

[Mark]: 17:17

don't let me

[Mike]: 17:18

and things like that and just the whole landscape that that covers and as you say what they can bring is just immense it is so so valuable because

[Mark]: 17:32

yeah

[Mike]: 17:34

they can

[Mark]: 17:35

light

[Mike]: 17:36

people in neurodiversity because they can think in very different ways

[Mark]: 17:43

can't make me

[Mike]: 17:43

um they they can come up with views and perspectives and ideas that people who are neuro normal or whatever term you want to use and

[Mark]: 17:57

mhm

[Mike]: 18:00

i mean we all think differently anyway but the way we think

[Mark]: 18:03

totally

[Mike]: 18:06

is what is the key distinguisher but those of us that are neuro normal or neuro normative i think the phrases we get into patterns of thinking that are shaped by working

[Mark]: 18:23

but

[Mike]: 18:25

with set patterns and things like that and

[Mark]: 18:28

yeah

[Mike]: 18:29

you you get somebody who might be autistic comes in and they see these patterns they see these

[Mark]: 18:38

yeah

[Mike]: 18:39

um different ways of connecting things and it's so much richer when you include it really

[Mark]: 18:48

exactly

[Mike]: 18:49

i mean the whole of life is you you include different people and you get much more colorful varied

[Mark]: 18:59

totally richness

[Mike]: 19:00

exciting world

[Mark]: 19:05

yeah totally agree and i i think it's on companies to more and more get educated um and and get up to speed on this because it's critically important it's critically important you know you know for society

[Mike]: 19:21

very very very much so

[Mark]: 19:25

do you know what i tell you what this is how much it impacted me when i did the training i actually cried because you know i got a young daughter she's about fourteen fifteen months old and i felt that if this is the the employment world like what i was experiencing at ibm was possible it didn't matter if anything came out in her future and there's companies that are becoming enlightened if you like and really inclusive on purpose like i'm talking about constructing offices and things like that like doing it on purpose not you know doing band aids or or segregating but doing it on earth creating environments that support this and i just think that you know what

[Mike]: 20:07

yeah

[Mark]: 20:10

is a bright future you know it was a time in my life i didn't want to have kids because i was worried about the world where they're coming into i think i'll you know to a a large degree it's things are getting better in my mind and what i'm seeing sure there's some crazy going on in the world in some places like you know ukraine um at the moment and ethiopia and other other parts of the world but i feel like in the culture i was brought up in there's you know which came from a very strong religious ethic you know our society if you like is now starting to realize that hey there's a lot of other things that we're actually got to get much smarter on much better on purpose and proactively do things to create a better world for everybody

[Mike]: 21:00

yeah very much so very much so it's i mean companies are starting to wake up to this

[Mark]: 21:11

he

[Mike]: 21:12

there is there is a lot more out there being spoken about and i know

[Mark]: 21:17

how

[Mike]: 21:21

my perspective on things is slightly different because of the people i'm connected

[Mark]: 21:24

one

[Mike]: 21:27

with on linkedin and twitter obviously these things the algorithms

[Mark]: 21:27

hm help

[Mike]: 21:33

surface all this stuff for me but even if i take that to one side if i go onto one of my other twitter accounts that doesn't have any of this i'm seeing a lot more people

[Mark]: 21:45

ice

[Mike]: 21:47

talking about these things discussing it companies being

[Mark]: 21:48

yeah

[Mike]: 21:54

really forward in the way that they are talking and recruiting and as you say

[Mark]: 21:56

what do you

[Mike]: 21:59

building

[Mark]: 22:00

hm

[Mike]: 22:01

um to make an all inclusive environment and there's a lot of learning going on because um

[Mark]: 22:08

hey

[Mike]: 22:12

you cannot make an environment just as you can't make anything a hundred percent accessible or suitable for everybody because what you might do for

[Mark]: 22:23

yeah mm hm

[Mike]: 22:29

fred over here might not suit jane over here it might actually have the opposite

[Mark]: 22:34

me

[Mike]: 22:36

effect um

[Mark]: 22:37

yeah

[Mike]: 22:38

but this is where we as a society as an industry as a culture we need to learn well how do we build these inclusive environments what are the steps we can take to include as many people as possible and make sure that we're not inadvertently excluding people because i a lot of the people i know within this industry and i mean in fact the majority of the people i know in this industry if you've told them look what you're doing is actually excluding a big chunk people they would be absolutely gutted they would be devastated if you told them that their actions were excluding a whole group of people and that's the challenge it's that people aren't aware that's happening and

[Mark]: 23:39

what that

[Mike]: 23:45

the more we're talking about it the more the change is happening we are seeing it becoming a normalized conversation it's i i i remember london twenty twelve olympics there was one thing that really

[Mark]: 24:05

you can

[Mike]: 24:09

absolutely shook a lot of people and that was when the anthems were played the announcers in the stadium said would those if you are able to

[Mark]: 24:25

two in

[Mike]: 24:29

please stand for the national anthems and immediately that meant that those that couldn't stand weren't being judged

[Mark]: 24:43

yeah totally right

[Mike]: 24:43

just one simple phrase and it just changed everything the commentators on tv were just like oh wow that's seismic that's that's huge

[Mark]: 24:58

yeah

[Mike]: 24:59

and if you listen to it now it's become quite normal where an anthem is played for

[Mark]: 25:04

there is

[Mike]: 25:06

people to say if you are able to please stand and it it's a simple change but it meant a big deal to those who always felt the glares of people looking at them why aren't you standing for the

[Mark]: 25:26

point

[Mike]: 25:27

anthem

[Mark]: 25:28

he

[Mike]: 25:28

well actually i can't

[Mark]: 25:31

yeah yeah

[Mike]: 25:31

so yeah it's it's simple changes sometimes can have world changing effects

[Mark]: 25:37

will totally totally listen if you want to hear more about this topic and and and and discuss this check out the things we don't talk about podcast uh with mike and allison mike it's been a pleasure to have you on the show

[Mike]: 25:53

it's been a joy m it's been wonderful thank you and thank you as well for the ninety day mentoring challenge because that was a huge thing for me that really was so thank you and people

[Mark]: 26:05

i find

[Mike]: 28:05

q plus