Haniel Croitoru on The MVP Show

[mark]: 1:37
today's guest is all the way from ontario canada he works as an associate director and power platform practice lead he's in his currently in his fifth year going on six as an mvp he's author of a book called agile office three six five you can find them on twitter at h quatro welcome to the show Haniel Croitoru

[haniel]: 1:58
thank you

[mark]: 1:59
did i

[haniel]: 1:59
let's

[mark]: 1:59
pronounce

[haniel]: 1:59
have you

[mark]: 2:00
everything right

[haniel]: 2:01
you did

[mark]: 2:02
well very good very good

[haniel]: 2:04
yes

[mark]: 2:04
not not too

[haniel]: 2:05
most

[mark]: 2:05
bad

[haniel]: 2:05
people

[mark]: 2:05
not

[haniel]: 2:05
usually

[mark]: 2:05
too bad

[haniel]: 2:05
just completely batter up my first name my last

[mark]: 2:09
oh

[haniel]: 2:09
name and at which point it's like just call me whatever

[mark]: 2:11
uh

[haniel]: 2:12
call me call me hey or

[haniel]: 2:13
yo

[haniel]: 2:14
or whatever you want

[mark]: 2:17
i love it i love it so tell me what's your story

[haniel]: 2:20
what's my story

[haniel]: 2:22
what's my my v p story what's my

[mark]: 2:24
now what's your what's your what's your you now where did you come from how did how what do you tell us a bit about things that are not related to n v p not related to tech but tell me about

[haniel]: 2:34
so

[mark]: 2:34
you know your work your fun

[haniel]: 2:36
yeah

[mark]: 2:36
your play your family those

[haniel]: 2:37
yeah

[mark]: 2:37
type of things

[mark]: 2:39
oh

[haniel]: 2:40
it's a big one very diverse

[mark]: 2:43
oh

[haniel]: 2:43
but i would say career wise i would have never thought i would

[mark]: 2:46
oh

[haniel]: 2:46
be ending up as an m v p or as somebody who's working in the microsoph space

[mark]: 2:50
oh

[haniel]: 2:52
when i was a new diversity

[mark]: 2:53
oh

[haniel]: 2:53
originally i really wanted to go into engineering or architecture and then later on i was kind of hoping to go to medical field um and then while i was doing my indegrad i said you know what

[haniel]: 3:09
medic and may not be at engineering is great but why and we just combine the two and i was actually looking at a field called by medical engineering and so i spent my first nine years of my career actually the masters

[haniel]: 3:24
in computer assisted surgery and then i spent nine years working in the field published four patterns specifically in the orthop space um and yeah that was really exciting and when i talked to people even today i left the field in two thousand and seven and even want to talk about it today with people they get very very interested very excited because i was literally doing augmented reality before the term was invented

[mark]: 3:54
well

[haniel]: 3:55
augmented reality is something that i would say less than

[mark]: 3:58
yeah

[haniel]: 3:58
ten years old right there was virtual reality but then the idea

[mark]: 4:02
oh

[haniel]: 4:02
behind taking you know live imagery and then super imposing something that was really my term for it so so developing software where imagine you're taking

[mark]: 4:12
yeah

[haniel]: 4:13
a city skin of a body and you're creating a three d model

[haniel]: 4:16
and you're able to navigate and virtually put an instrument into the body so you're you're putting it in but you don't have to cut the whole body open you make a small key hole in decision and a chose way you're and you're doing sub millimeter

[mark]: 4:29
yeah

[haniel]: 4:29
accuracy when it comes to two

[mark]: 4:32
yeah

[haniel]: 4:32
measurements like that it was quite ground breaking at the time

[mark]: 4:37
wow

[haniel]: 4:37
so that's that's where i came from

[mark]: 4:39
that's crazy that's crazy and i just a couple of things that kind of prick my interest there the patent side of things

[haniel]: 4:46
yes

[mark]: 4:47
what's the process around getting a patent oh

[haniel]: 4:51
so i was working a research facilities so it was actually quite straight forward as long as the client is willing to sign that that they're you know

[mark]: 4:58
yah

[haniel]: 4:59
participating in research study obviously under supervision of doctors that

[mark]: 5:04
oh

[haniel]: 5:04
really is all that it took to get life patients for some of the

[mark]: 5:09
yeah

[haniel]: 5:09
research we needed to work with cadavers

[haniel_croitoru]: 5:11
was a bit easier to really have to sign much

[mark]: 5:13
yep

[haniel]: 5:13
um

[mark]: 5:14
uh

[haniel]: 5:14
there was you know

[mark]: 5:16
yeah

[haniel]: 5:17
certain individuals where they would sign ahead you know before their death they would say that they're willing to donate their

[mark]: 5:23
yeah

[haniel]: 5:23
body for rest truce

[mark]: 5:24
yeah

[haniel]: 5:25
was

[mark]: 5:26
so

[haniel]: 5:26

that

[mark]: 5:26
what

[haniel]: 5:26
was

[mark]: 5:26
about

[haniel]: 5:26
it

[mark]: 5:26
you talked about was it three patents you got as part of that

[haniel]: 5:29
for

[mark]: 5:29
process

[haniel]: 5:29
yes

[mark]: 5:30
for patent so is that a very involved process

[haniel]: 5:35
getting a patent is quite involved

[mark]: 5:36
ye

[haniel]: 5:37
there is typically first there's a legal element where

[mark]: 5:40
oh

[haniel]: 5:40
you have some legal lawyers search to find if there's anything similar that has been done and then you basically have to write the patterns and it has to be written in a way that can be easily

[mark]: 5:53
yeah

[haniel]: 5:53
copied and if there is something similar then you

[mark]: 5:56
yeah

[haniel]: 5:56
have to write it in a way that it will be still considered unique and not

[mark]: 6:00
yeah

[haniel]: 6:01
obvious

[mark]: 6:02
hm well

[haniel]: 6:03
yep

[mark]: 6:03
and and was it a long drawn out process or is it like is it a

[haniel]: 6:07
yeah

[mark]: 6:07
three month thing a six month twelve month moti

[haniel]: 6:09
probably

[mark]: 6:09
year

[haniel]: 6:09
six or twelve months

[mark]: 6:10
yeah

[haniel]: 6:10
six or twelve month typically for a patent yes and sometimes just the legal searches can take months sometimes

[mark]: 6:17
well well crazy so so that that's the industry you used to be in

[haniel]: 6:24
yes

[mark]: 6:24
tell me how you how you crossed the bridge how did you come into into

[haniel]: 6:28
oh

[mark]: 6:29
microsoft side of things and get into you

[haniel]: 6:31
oh

[mark]: 6:31
know software things like that from what you

[haniel]: 6:34
oh

[mark]: 6:34
were doing

[haniel]: 6:35
so

[mark]: 6:35
yeah

[haniel]: 6:36
so it was a bit of a change in so the company i was working for

[mark]: 6:41
yeah

[haniel]: 6:42
the cnology was very expensive at the time i was working on silicon graphic machines of

[mark]: 6:47
i remember them

[haniel]: 6:47
audience or a few if you remember those

[mark]: 6:49
yep yep

[haniel]: 6:50
um so a system would typically go for close to a million dollars and

[haniel_croitoru]: 6:54
so hospitals don't have that kind of budget to spend um and orthobiti

[mark]: 6:59
oh

[haniel]: 7:00
company often what they would say is the say okay will buy this will buy this computer

[mark]: 7:03
yeah

[haniel]: 7:04
for the hospital as long as the hospital is committing to using so many implants

[mark]: 7:08
oh

[haniel]: 7:09
for

[mark]: 7:10
yeah

[haniel]: 7:10
you know at a minimum for their surgeries right so uh orthopedic implants are very expensive and and so every company tries to get there their their foothold into into a hospital

[mark]: 7:24
oh

[haniel]: 7:25
right because they typically within or it's like several thousand dollars of just hardware that's being spent so for them to throw in you know a million dollars sometimes it's

[mark]: 7:34
oh

[haniel]: 7:34
not a huge deal if you imagine how many of those surgeries they can do maybe six or seven a day

[mark]: 7:39
yeah

[haniel]: 7:39
you know you multiply that by the number

[mark]: 7:41
oh

[haniel]: 7:41
of you know days and how many surgeons you have working in parallel

[mark]: 7:44
yeah

[haniel]: 7:45
um then the cost has come down significantly from s g s

[mark]: 7:49
ah

[haniel]: 7:49
they went down to using p c s running on linix so the cost became you know a

[mark]: 7:54
oh

[haniel]: 7:54
few thousands as a per post a million

[mark]: 7:57
yeah

[haniel]: 7:57
um but there was some change and then there was some some company veoorcs and everything essentially the division i was working

[mark]: 8:03
oh

[haniel]: 8:04
for was sold to a company in germany and so literally there was about her and fifty of us that were left out of a job overnight

[mark]: 8:11
wow

[haniel]: 8:12
um so my choice was either to relocate to either the us or europe or israel which is where

[mark]: 8:18
ah

[haniel]: 8:18
i'm from

[mark]: 8:19
uh

[haniel]: 8:19
or or to to basically shift

[mark]: 8:22
yah

[haniel]: 8:22
my career and i was just freshly married in toronto so picking up

[mark]: 8:25
a

[haniel]: 8:25
and leaving was not a first option

[mark]: 8:29
so

[haniel]: 8:29
and so

[mark]: 8:29
tell us tell us a bit about your family oh

[haniel]: 8:32
so i'm married i got three daughters got thirteen year old twins and other eleven year old

[mark]: 8:37
well

[haniel]: 8:39
so they're yeah there their handful my younger one my eleven year old she's very much interested in in the chnology and robotics and everything so she's taken after me she actually go presented with me at a conference one time

[mark]: 8:51
that's so

[haniel]: 8:51
on

[mark]: 8:52
cool

[haniel]: 8:52
her ninth on her ninth birthday yes that was quite exciting yeah

[mark]: 8:57
yeah

[haniel]: 8:57
and then you know my my twins are very diverse day they love different things so

[mark]: 9:04
that's

[haniel]: 9:04
that's

[mark]: 9:04
so cool

[haniel]: 9:05
yeah

[mark]: 9:05
that's so cool that's so cold

[haniel]: 9:06
yes

[mark]: 9:06
so tell us how did you bring us up to speed you're obviously in the power platform space now with microsop take it your

[haniel]: 9:13
yes

[mark]: 9:14
m v p is in that area tell us little bit about that journey how did you get to where you are now how did you you end up you know five years ago getting your m v p what was

[haniel]: 9:22
oh

[mark]: 9:22
that journey for you

[haniel]: 9:24
so i've always liked giving back to the community and

[mark]: 9:28
a

[haniel]: 9:28
and presenting an and the whole social element

[mark]: 9:31
yeah oh

[haniel]: 9:31
of it um and i've been working with a number of people at the time and i was doing some blogging and i was

[mark]: 9:39
yeah

[haniel]: 9:39
doing some presenting not a lot of it and it was actually a colleague

[mark]: 9:41
oh

[haniel]: 9:41
of mine who at the time said hey you know you're you're putting out some good materials wanted you get your m p and i always thought you know n v p kind of its like for demi gods right

[mark]: 9:51
uh

[haniel]: 9:51
it's not it's not for me i'm not you know i'm not that that caliber and i never thought of it of it and basic lee said no just keep

[mark]: 10:01
oh

[haniel]: 10:01
it up and he introduced me to my my the c s m which is the community manager for

[mark]: 10:08
yeah

[haniel]: 10:10
microsophic for the region m had a couple of calls with the individual and he basically says you know here's a cell fill it out with all your contributions and

[mark]: 10:19
oh

[haniel]: 10:20
he says i want to see a few more by the end of the year on before new it i got my mvp

[mark]: 10:27
well

[haniel]: 10:27
it was it

[mark]: 10:28
it's

[haniel]: 10:28
was yeah

[mark]: 10:29
have you always been an n v p in

[haniel]: 10:30
yeah

[mark]: 10:30
canada

[haniel]: 10:32
yes

[mark]: 10:32
because

[haniel]: 10:32
yeh

[mark]: 10:33
this is my experience right is that when i used to go when when we had in person vp summits the canadians

[haniel]: 10:41
i

[mark]: 10:41
were just next level amazing with how they showed you know you're in

[haniel]: 10:45
yeah

[mark]: 10:45
your red and white you had awesome jackets or some merch and it was kind of like the canadians were conceneas the pinnacle of the c s m was just like that as

[haniel]: 10:56
yes

[mark]: 10:57
like the merchant stuff were you in in it when that kind of stuff was happening did you

[haniel]: 11:03
yes

[mark]: 11:03
make it to some n v p summits

[haniel]: 11:05
yes i went to i think three mvp summits before covid hit so yeah so if you actually look at some of those pictures and you'll see kind of front center i'm there

[mark]: 11:16
yeah i

[haniel]: 11:17
so

[mark]: 11:17
actually

[haniel]: 11:17
yeah the energy is just amazing

[mark]: 11:20
i crashed one of the canadian

[haniel]: 11:22
yeah

[mark]: 11:22
photos there was a big

[haniel]: 11:23
yeah

[mark]: 11:24
photos on the staircase and one of the food

[haniel]: 11:26
oh

[mark]: 11:26
locations you know was an after he ve vent

[haniel]: 11:29
yeah

[mark]: 11:29
on Microsoft campus and yeah i just

[haniel]: 11:33
i do

[mark]: 11:34
had something similar to what everybody was wearing so i just got in there and so there's a random key in the

[haniel]: 11:40
oh

[mark]: 11:41
in the canadian group photo at one point so so what

[haniel]: 11:46
yeah

[mark]: 11:46
area of technology do you mainly work with you no power platforms kind of a very broad collection of technologies what what have you really owned your skill on what area do you callin do you tend to be most focused on

[haniel]: 12:02
so of the bar platform i spend most of my time in power auto mate and power apse

[haniel]: 12:10
um

[haniel_croitoru]: 12:11
less so with diverse and part virtual agent

[haniel]: 12:15
and i would say even within that space i'm focusing very happily on recently on governance what

[mark]: 12:21
right

[haniel]: 12:21
i'm finding is there's a lot of organizations who are rolling out par platform and it's basically say let's turn on the switch and we're gonna have a whole bunch of citizen developers let them have fun let them let them innovate let them simplify and streamline their business process without any thought put behind it

[mark]: 12:43
yeah

[haniel]: 12:44
what they don't realize is that you know cos you know give that example of spider man right with a lot of with great power becomes

[mark]: 12:50
uh

[haniel]: 12:51
great responsibility

[mark]: 12:52
yeah

[haniel]: 12:52
but it literally is

[mark]: 12:53
oh

[haniel]: 12:53
like what what sometimes it fails to realize is that you are equipping your citizen developers with tools

[haniel]: 13:02
to achieve a lot in a very short amount of time you can delete an

[mark]: 13:07
oh

[haniel]: 13:07
entire share point

[haniel]: 13:08
environment in a very short amount of time right

[mark]: 13:11
yep

[haniel]: 13:11
you can cause some

[mark]: 13:12
oh

[haniel]: 13:12
serious damage if you don't know what you're doing you can create data laws if you're not putting the right guard rails in place there's a lot

[mark]: 13:20
yeah

[haniel]: 13:20
of things that can go wrong if they're not properly governed and so i did a survey on line on linked in

[mark]: 13:26
yeah

[haniel]: 13:28
two months ago just to find out you know who in new organization is actually managing the park platform and so i think it was about fifty per cent or so said that it was it

[mark]: 13:41
oh

[haniel]: 13:42
um there was maybe around twenty or so per cent that said that it was business

[haniel]: 13:50
small percentage said that there was a dedicated

[mark]: 13:52
oh

[haniel]: 13:52
team and what was surprising is that thirty percent of companies there is nobody who is governing the park platform

[mark]: 13:59
well

[haniel]: 14:00
it's

[mark]: 14:00
well

[haniel]: 14:01
free for all and

[mark]: 14:02
so

[haniel]: 14:02
so

[mark]: 14:02
what

[haniel]: 14:02
this is where i just found that

[mark]: 14:04
yeah

[haniel]: 14:04
it's it's

[mark]: 14:06
yeah

[haniel]: 14:06
i don't want say it's an ice area i mean if you were to compare to other things like yeah it's not a sex it's not as exciting as actually building salut tion but there's a need there's

[mark]: 14:16
yeah

[haniel]: 14:16
there's a definite need to to to help these organizations close that gap

[mark]: 14:23
yeah so true are you are you using pa as part of that story

[haniel]: 14:28
r p is also part of that story absolutely referring to the parautomate dustopsolutions

[mark]: 14:33
yeah yeah yeah

[haniel]: 14:33
yes

[mark]: 14:35
are you seeing any particular examples do you have any particular examples were seeing p in production use

[haniel]: 14:43
um well i mean i'm seeing it when it's so i personally see r p as a stop gap if there is

[mark]: 14:51
yeah

[haniel]: 14:51
a published interface

[mark]: 14:52
yeah

[haniel]: 14:53
available

[mark]: 14:53
yep

[haniel]: 14:54
then use

[mark]: 14:54
yeah

[haniel]: 14:54
it it's faster

[mark]: 14:55
totally

[haniel]: 14:55
it's more predictable

[mark]: 14:57
ah

[haniel]: 14:57
you usually get better

[mark]: 14:58
ye

[haniel]: 14:58
better through put you don't have the overhead of setting up another machine or another v m other accounts

[mark]: 15:03
oh

[haniel]: 15:04
right and so either when you're working with a legacy environment

[mark]: 15:09
yeah

[haniel]: 15:09
or if there's certain functional that is lacking i find that that's typically when companies are going to use r p solutions

[mark]: 15:17
yeah

[haniel]: 15:17
um but once once there is a more favorable solution available

[mark]: 15:21
oh

[haniel]: 15:21
through through direct access then that's how companies were typical like to go

[mark]: 15:27
absolutely absolutely

[haniel]: 15:28
ah

[mark]: 15:29
so when you think of all the projects that you've been involved in over the years in the microsoft space kind of are there any three that rarely stand out on why

[haniel]: 15:40
oh wow that's a that's a really loaded question i mean one particular one that we we literally

[mark]: 15:51
oh

[haniel]: 15:51
took a

[mark]: 15:52
right

[haniel]: 15:54
religious institution from the stone age to very serious little transformation was really looking at everything that

[mark]: 16:01
ye

[haniel]: 16:01
to do which is used to be all on paper

[mark]: 16:05
uh

[haniel]: 16:05
there was no moss no

[haniel]: 16:07
computers being used at all to everything that they almost everything that they were doing was now being done online which includes also if somebody wants to become a minister

[haniel]: 16:17
the whole pathway to all of their studies and their certifications and their reviews and the like everything has

[mark]: 16:24
yeah

[haniel]: 16:24
was all being done

[mark]: 16:25
yeah

[haniel]: 16:26
through

[mark]: 16:26
uh

[haniel]: 16:26
the platform and share point and other autobation too so it was kind of great to see how even in those kind

[mark]: 16:32
yeah

[haniel]: 16:32
of areas technology still as a good

[mark]: 16:35
yeah

[haniel]: 16:35
fit

[mark]: 16:35
m when

[haniel]: 16:37
yep

[mark]: 16:37
you when you look

[haniel]: 16:38
yeah

[mark]: 16:38
at are there any others that pop i mind

[haniel]: 16:41
um other ones i mean not right now maybe if they come back later i'll

[mark]: 16:47
yeah

[haniel]: 16:48
go back to that

[mark]: 16:49
is it in the when you look at the type of organizations you have worked

[haniel]: 16:56
oh

[mark]: 16:56
with what's the typical um profile if you like of organizations that come to you to use your service are they you know do they have a massive challenge do they are they wanting to innovate are they are they like fully like a paper based like the one you mentioned or access heavy or

[haniel]: 17:18
yeah

[mark]: 17:18
axel heavy or you know or is it now modernization program what are the reasons are coming to you

[haniel]: 17:25
so there's actually i would say a few a few categories some of them are sorry i'm just getting a message to your low browser storage

[mark]: 17:37
that's all right don't worry about it let's keep going let's see if it stops us

[haniel]: 17:42
um so i would say one category when we work with financial organizations they are inherently very excelled based and very manual process based

[haniel]: 17:53
so they come to us to say okay we need to do better we need we have a lot of people where all they do is just copying and pasting data between excells it's time consuming it's air prone it's not the

[haniel]: 18:04
best way so that's one i would say one category where we're actually working with c f s and financial and

[mark]: 18:12
yeah

[haniel]: 18:12
accounting department or finance departments organizations to to digitize and optimize their business processes um another category that we have our companies who

[mark]: 18:23
oh

[haniel]: 18:24
are using the microsoph stock today they're interested in getting into automation they're not doing it yet so they're they're more

[mark]: 18:33
yeah

[haniel]: 18:34
cautious i would say so for them they would say let's build a governance first before we start

[haniel]: 18:38
building any solutions because want to make sure that we're doing it right

[mark]: 18:42
yeah

[haniel]: 18:42
so for them they would start with you know establishing the governance and establishing the rules of how things are going to be shared who can build how they build how do you approve something

[haniel]: 18:52
and all of that um then we have another category of company which are more kind of cowboyish which is

[haniel_croitoru]: 19:00
you know everybody is using it and then

[haniel]: 19:03
one day they wake up because some sort of an incident happened an they don't know what's going on and they say can

[haniel]: 19:07
you help us out and we say sure let me start with

[mark]: 19:09
yeah

[haniel]: 19:09
doing an assessment and they will often say we're not really using the power platform

[mark]: 19:22
oh yeah well oh that's right good for refreshment end urejustumso i'm just going to ask you the question again around what's kind of po file um that you're seeing and then i think you're up to about the cowboy one okay and then we'll i'll splice it an impost production is that okay okay that's all right that's all right it should be it should be okay because it's saying it's still uploadis completed on your side okay so so you were looking at profiles of customers there typically and you're talking about cowboys and that was the final one i think yeah yeah so so tell us a bit about the cowboy example m m yeah

[haniel]: 26:37
we have these cowboy companies who just love to you know

[mark]: 26:41
yeah

[haniel]: 26:41
they need to see a new tool nice and shiny they just roll it out and hope everything is going to go well right and

[mark]: 26:48
yeah

[haniel]: 26:48
then after a while they realize something goes wrong or somebody's having an issue

[mark]: 26:53
yeah

[haniel]: 26:53
and then when to start putting

[mark]: 26:54
oh

[haniel]: 26:55

the breaks on and they call us and say oh you know something is happening we don't know maybe you can help success the situation and you know usually we'll do an assessment they say we don't think it's being used very

[mark]: 27:06
yeah

[haniel]: 27:06
much and then they're sometimes shocked to find out just

[mark]: 27:10
yeah

[haniel]: 27:10
how much the proliferation of the platform

[mark]: 27:14
yeah

[haniel]: 27:15
had has taken roots in their company right because because it is easy right

[mark]: 27:18
yeah

[haniel]: 27:19
it's easy to build a solution it's easy to automate and then if they want to they really when you want to put the breaks on and take a step back they realize okay that's a problem now because now organizations departments have become dependent

[mark]: 27:33
yeah

[haniel]: 27:34
so if you want to say stop using it now what do they do they can't really they can't

[mark]: 27:37
ah

[haniel]: 27:38
just say okay

[mark]: 27:38
yeah

[haniel]: 27:38
start it will roll back so that becomes sometimes a bit trickier you have to almost like do do a micro surgery to to pin point exactly

[mark]: 27:47
oh

[haniel]: 27:47
the source of these problems and and then fix them

[mark]: 27:50
makes sense makes sense

[haniel]: 27:51
my

[mark]: 27:52
well this has been really

[haniel]: 27:52
well

[mark]: 27:53
interesting talking to you and seeing you experience just to wrap up tell us what impact

[haniel]: 27:58
yah

[mark]: 27:59
achieving n v p has had on your career

[haniel]: 28:03
um definitely it helps in terms of exposure so it's herds of clients for

[mark]: 28:11
oh

[haniel]: 28:11
example when they hear that you're an m v p they are sometimes more

[mark]: 28:16
oh

[haniel]: 28:16
inclined to listen to your opinion especially

[mark]: 28:19
oh

[haniel]: 28:19
if it's a tie breaker right if one person says one thing and

[mark]: 28:24
oh

[haniel]: 28:24
you say something else they're not exactly your having that v p gives you the advantage of something and not always right you know but it does come on give an advantage as somebody who has more in depth knowledge who is better connected with the microsoff team right so

[mark]: 28:40
oh

[haniel]: 28:41
while as an m v p i cannot tell you certain information that microsoff tells me i can guide you in a certain directions right so as a client

[mark]: 28:49
oh

[haniel]: 28:49
for example as as recent as two years ago i could guide clients who said okay we want to do this you know this big customer solution on skye is like

[mark]: 28:59
yeah

[haniel]: 29:00
maybe you look at teams instead right without calling it out until it was actually announced

[mark]: 29:06
yeah

[haniel]: 29:06
we couldn't really just tell a client gyp is dead

[mark]: 29:09
yeah

[haniel]: 29:09
right so that's just

[mark]: 29:12
oh

[haniel]: 29:12
one simple example but there's other solutions you know you mentioned our pa before so when the the solution was actually purchased by

[haniel]: 29:23
you know we mention

[haniel]: 29:25
and integrated into the park platform

[mark]: 29:27
to

[haniel]: 29:27
again it was something that i've known about

[mark]: 29:30
yeah

[haniel]: 29:31
and when clients would say about you know what is microsoff's answer to r p a i would say well you know i'm sure they're working on something

[mark]: 29:40
oh

[haniel]: 29:41
stay tuned um you know don't hedge your bets on the competitors because there may be something there because it is it is part of a full solution of a you know for all the matin solution so having something for our is definitely there um so again without going into the details that

[mark]: 29:58
oh

[haniel]: 29:59
is something that i find is very valuable

[mark]: 30:00
yeah

[haniel]: 30:01
as well as just building a great network of people like for me personally s i love to travel and so actually took my wife to just before ovid took her to portugal for our for her further birthday

[mark]: 30:13
yeah

[haniel]: 30:13
and actually met up with an m

[mark]: 30:14
yeah

[haniel]: 30:14
p and she took us around and showed us certain parts that normal tour i would never see because it's not something that's in the tourist books per se

[mark]: 30:22
oh

[haniel]: 30:22
so for me the social aspect is a really important part it's not about the it's not all about

[mark]: 30:28
yeah

[haniel]: 30:28
the contribution an it's not all about the busne so a lot of it is also personal

[mark]: 30:32
and they'll thank you so much for coming on the show

[haniel]: 30:35
my pleasure